Tower Block Fir

[lorrydriver]

Those who are accountable should be locked up for life for murder  :91:

[Altair]

True, Altair....... BUT only for those sad indivuals who lack empathy for any form of human life.
Although life has to go on, even for those involved, it doesn't mean that we don't care, try to help or remember them in our thoughts...infinitum.

absolutely nothing to do with people lacking care, it is is all about realising that much of what we feel is instinctive and not for the individuals themselves.

not sure why you seem to be taking offence at this?

Many of our emotional responses are instinctive triggers which serve to unify us as a group, these are deep rooted survival tools.
Realising this doesn't make one a 'sad individual', just informed and educated.

[JessicaH]

True, Altair....... BUT only for those sad indivuals who lack empathy for any form of human life.
Although life has to go on, even for those involved, it doesn't mean that we don't care, try to help or remember them in our thoughts...infinitum.

[Altair]

.

Let up hope and pray the inquiry doesn't take as long as it did with Hillborough and the man in the street gets justice for once and all services involved in the rescue are treated with the respect they surely deserve.

Not sure what justice the man in the street is going to get , or what good it will do them.

There will soon be another  new tragedy to feel false empathy for, in the main we do it to make ourselves feel better about the **** world we live in.

Sorry but that's bang out of order i'm sure like me people all feel terribly sad for the victims of this tragedy and it is most certainly NOT false.

It is not out of order at all, simply a fact.
Feeling sad is fine , but often it is for ourselves and not specifically for those involved, we all have a need to identify and share in their suffering it is an
intrinsic part of our social makeup.

We feel sad for the loss of life and for those left behind, but have no real connection with them and so much of what we feel is false.
You can take this as harsh or out of order, but it doesn't make it less true.

[Rod]

The cladding was tested on a news programme using specialised equipment and fire experts. It was found that the cladding caught fire very easily and that there was a hollow piece at the front which acted like a funnel. A window above would suck up the fire and this is why the programme thought it spread so quickly.

[verwood]

.

Let up hope and pray the inquiry doesn't take as long as it did with Hillborough and the man in the street gets justice for once and all services involved in the rescue are treated with the respect they surely deserve.

Not sure what justice the man in the street is going to get , or what good it will do them.

There will soon be another  new tragedy to feel false empathy for, in the main we do it to make ourselves feel better about the **** world we live in.

Sorry but that's bang out of order i'm sure like me people all feel terribly sad for the victims of this tragedy and it is most certainly NOT false.

[JessicaH]

Who cares about the " little gem" you friend sent you hogsy....you are still waffling. :NIGHT_1:

[Altair]

.

Let up hope and pray the inquiry doesn't take as long as it did with Hillborough and the man in the street gets justice for once and all services involved in the rescue are treated with the respect they surely deserve.

Not sure what justice the man in the street is going to get , or what good it will do them.

There will soon be another  new tragedy to feel false empathy for, in the main we do it to make ourselves feel better about the **** world we live in.

[JessicaH]

Not only do some of you forum folk NOT read, and digest, posts before responding but worse it appears some don't even bother to read them at all before continuing to stir.....

This is part of my original post the point of which was about WHO was most likely to be BLAMED for this disaster ..
In this instance WHATEVER started  the fire, unless intentional, is actually immaterial.
Surely even an idiot can understand that.
   
Re: Tower Block Fir
June 14, 2017, 16:20:29 PM »
.
A disgraceful situation which I hope leads to manslaughter convictions plus the removal of all their work related  pensions .
However what is the betting not only will this get swept under the carpet but all involved will end up being relocated to other positions because the flat dweller with the fridge, that started this catastrophe, will be blamed.

The facetious remarks I was referring to was towards those who are quick to blame others of different persuasions, ie politics, religion or nationality at every given opportunity.  That, IMO, is just sick.

So for goodness sake Hogs lighten up. Stop this nit picking just because you believe yourself to be superior and save
your angst for those caught up in this tragedy.

Let up hope and pray the inquiry doesn't take as long as it did with Hillborough and the man in the street gets justice for once and all services involved in the rescue are treated with the respect they surely deserve.

[zilnor]

The London Emergency services are probably the best in the world. The way they have responded to a catastrophe of unimaginable horror, devastating loss of life, traumatic scenes of people searching for their loved ones, and still manage to carry on, is nothing short of amazing.
A huge round of applause for our emergency services.  :bravo_2: :bravo_2: :bravo_2:

[webejamin]

I haven't always agreed with Hogs, but surely what he is saying makes sense.
We should wait for the final word from the experts before apportioning blame.
Problem is we live in a world  where news is 24/7 , where we don't have the patience to
Wait, and we also have a desire to lay the blame somewhere,without knowing the full truth.

Quite right too, just because some person says something on the telly, it doesn't mean much until the inquiry is done. We can be sure that before that happens, there will be plenty of lies, wriggling and squirming by some involved in this scandalous event. 

[Altair]

I haven't always agreed with Hogs, but surely what he is saying makes sense.
We should wait for the final word from the experts before apportioning blame.
Problem is we live in a world  where news is 24/7 , where we don't have the patience to
Wait, and we also have a desire to lay the blame somewhere,without knowing the full truth.

[Jimel]

Back peddling???

[Tetley]

Push your ignore button? No i dont play these silly games, i am not a child. Informed?? who is kidding who!

KJH3

I would never 'kid' about some poor soul/s losing their life/s in a fire!  If you are saying that my post re the process after a fatality in a fire is wrong please explain to the wider forum members where I am incorrect.

Hogs

Hogs,

I said I was never going to comment on this forum again, but this something very close to my heart.

I saw the same Sky news interview that Jessica H saw, it was a Somalian Guy, who was taking directly to the Sky news reporter outside the building, he stated that his neighbour who lived on the 4th floor, banged on his door to alert him of the fire and said his fridge had ''exploded'', so it's witness evidence, and I don't know any Fire Investigation Officer, who would not at least listen to witness evidence.
 
Both you and I know that in any high stress situation people can get confused about specific details, but the guy clearly said it was his neighbours fridge, So Jessica H's comments were not newspaper rhetoric, but from an interview with a resident. 

Whether it was the fridge that caught fire, (I have attended at least one, fridges use electricity or sometimes gas, so the possibility that they can catch fire, can never be totally dismissed) or flames and smoke had percolated into the kitchen and the owner assumed it was his fridge, we might never know.

I know that now in Manchester and I assume London too, a fire appliance only has a crew of 4, it used to be 6, and that stations that used to have two appliances, now only have one, the cuts have taken away those spare men and those vital appliances.

We both have the experience to appreciate that the initial crew who attended, would have faced an exceedingly challenging situation,  Just 4, (possibly) 5 men, A driver/pump operator, an Officer in charge, and two breathing apparatus wearers, and a appliance that only carries 1800 litres of water, and they are faced with a rapidly deteriorating fire scene, multiple casualties, screaming people in windows, and many people demanding their attention.

I have been in the situation where I have turned up at an incident with just one appliance and had to commit BA men to effect immediate rescues, with no back up, and as an OIC, you trust the professionalism of your firefighters, but know in the back of your mind, that if it goes wrong, it's your decision and your head on the block.

No doubt the full investigation will take many months to explain why the Building regulations and fire compartmentation failed, but fail they obviously did.

I makes me immensely proud to see the Emergency services do what they train to do, to go above and beyond the call of duty, It makes me miss the job and my colleagues even more, My deepest sympathies to all those who have had to experiences this disaster, to their friends and loved ones, and sadly to those who have lost their lives.

The UK has had it's fair share of trauma in recent months, but the people of the UK always rally together and show true spirit in difficult times, regardless of their colour or creed. And for all it's faults, the UK really is the greatest nation on Earth.

Off Topic ish But the way folks have come together after London x2 ,Manchester and now these poor folks in the fire, folks do help each other out day to day wich is probaly what keeps the world spinning aside from the handfull of barmy bxggers trying to control it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf_mYsgz07s

[Jo-JoB]

Push your ignore button? No i dont play these silly games, i am not a child. Informed?? who is kidding who!

KJH3

I would never 'kid' about some poor soul/s losing their life/s in a fire!  If you are saying that my post re the process after a fatality in a fire is wrong please explain to the wider forum members where I am incorrect.

Hogs

Hogs,

I said I was never going to comment on this forum again, but this something very close to my heart.

I saw the same Sky news interview that Jessica H saw, it was a Somalian Guy, who was taking directly to the Sky news reporter outside the building, he stated that his neighbour who lived on the 4th floor, banged on his door to alert him of the fire and said his fridge had ''exploded'', so it's witness evidence, and I don't know any Fire Investigation Officer, who would not at least listen to witness evidence.
 
Both you and I know that in any high stress situation people can get confused about specific details, but the guy clearly said it was his neighbours fridge, So Jessica H's comments were not newspaper rhetoric, but from an interview with a resident. 

Whether it was the fridge that caught fire, (I have attended at least one, fridges use electricity or sometimes gas, so the possibility that they can catch fire, can never be totally dismissed) or flames and smoke had percolated into the kitchen and the owner assumed it was his fridge, we might never know.

I know that now in Manchester and I assume London too, a fire appliance only has a crew of 4, it used to be 6, and that stations that used to have two appliances, now only have one, the cuts have taken away those spare men and those vital appliances.

We both have the experience to appreciate that the initial crew who attended, would have faced an exceedingly challenging situation,  Just 4, (possibly) 5 men, A driver/pump operator, an Officer in charge, and two breathing apparatus wearers, and a appliance that only carries 1800 litres of water, and they are faced with a rapidly deteriorating fire scene, multiple casualties, screaming people in windows, and many people demanding their attention.

I have been in the situation where I have turned up at an incident with just one appliance and had to commit BA men to effect immediate rescues, with no back up, and as an OIC, you trust the professionalism of your firefighters, but know in the back of your mind, that if it goes wrong, it's your decision and your head on the block.

No doubt the full investigation will take many months to explain why the Building regulations and fire compartmentation failed, but fail they obviously did.

I makes me immensely proud to see the Emergency services do what they train to do, to go above and beyond the call of duty, It makes me miss the job and my colleagues even more, My deepest sympathies to all those who have had to experiences this disaster, to their friends and loved ones, and sadly to those who have lost their lives.

The UK has had it's fair share of trauma in recent months, but the people of the UK always rally together and show true spirit in difficult times, regardless of their colour or creed. And for all it's faults, the UK really is the greatest nation on Earth.

[JessicaH]

So fail to understand hogs why you were so derogatory to me when I mentioned the fire caused by a fridge !!

[JessicaH]

WOW lmj52, thanks for that link from LFB. Very informative.
Have seen several houses decimated by dishwasher fires consequently never recommend anyone to use one at night but the speed with which a  plastic coated fridge/freezer is destroyed is just amazing.

But whatever caused this horrendous catastrophe perhaps forum folk will now start acting with empathy towards the victims and their families without having to make pathetic facetious remarks towards others regardless of the different opinions or political persuasions.

[tandas]

I worked in the UK as a manager of a block for the over 60s it had the stay in your flat policy in the event of a fire.  There were several fires in the time I worked there and they never obeyed that rule!  They would all be out in the corridors looking to see where the fire was and the fire brigade would tell me that they should go in and shut the door.  Thank god there was never a really bad one because most of them couldn't have got down the stairs unaided and all the front so called fire doors had a big gap under them which would have let smoke in easily.  I had many false alarms, burnt toast fried sausages even talc setting of the smoke alarms in flats but the brigade were always there in minutes and ready for anything.  Two of them died in the bad fire in Southampton which was also a tower block.  I would never live in one.

[lmj52]

http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/news/LatestNewsReleases_Fridgefreezerdelayputtinglivesatrisk.asp#.WUKYp1DTWSM

[webejamin]

Well I tend to think you're right Hogs, we should wait for the experts to find out. All the media have been there touting for anyone to say anything dramatic, they have people lining up to tell their stories about what they saw or heard.

The thing that gets me, coz I've never seen a fridge explode, how big and fiery would a fridge explode? or would it depend on what was in it?
I did see the guy on the telly saying his neighbour had warned him of the fridge blowing up, so that information was hearsay anyway.

What can I expect if my fridge blows up? will I have time to switch it off? try to put the fire out? Would it be so catastrophic that it was not possible to get some kind of control over it, assuming someone is there at the time?

This post is not meant to argue a point, but merely to find out how a fridge can blow up as described. I have seen electrical things catch fire, or go bang before, but not a fridge. 

[KJH3]

Push your ignore button? No i dont play these silly games, i am not a child. Informed?? who is kidding who!

[Jimel]

No its not taken long for the Forum Know Alls to come up with the reason, problem and solution. Some on here have the answer for everything, every time on every subject. Pathetic
[/qsuote]

I agree with you KJH3.

[webejamin]

We used to live in a tower block in Barking. One day we had a bad smell of burning coming into the bathroom, this lasted for a couple of days, even after complaining to the caretaker, who could find no cause. Finally I called the caretaker and we decided to bang on a few doors below my flat.
The person in the flat directly under us didn't respond, so after lifting the letter box I saw it was full of smoke. We called the fire brigade and in the meantime broke onto the flat through the meter cupboard.
It was shocking, the flat was gutted, the woman was burnt to death on her bed and of course the place erupted in flames due to a fireman arriving and opening a window.
The fire brigade reckoned it had been on fire for several days, but contained inside the flat due to metal window frames, fire proof front door and only wallpaper and furniture able to burn. It had simmered for days, slowly burning everything inside, even the front door wasn't hot.
I think we were very lucky that there were no fancy materials used to insulate those flats, plus of course the woman had all the windows shut.
I read in the paper that the result of the enquiry was, that the woman had a drink and a cigarette in bed.
Those tower blocks have been demolished now.

[KJH3]

No its not taken long for the Forum Know Alls to come up with the reason, problem and solution. Some on here have the answer for everything, every time on every subject. Pathetic

[gingernut]

Cuts or no Cuts. There was 20 tenders present some within 8 minutes, seeing the quickness it took hold I doubt if there had been another 20 the outcome would have been no different. What hasn't been mentioned is that some of those firefighters had been there from 1 o'clock till late afternoon,and it is what they after do when the building is deemed safe to enter,I  don't think I could do there job for any amount of money.

[zilnor]

The Fire Service reacted quickly and magnificently, as always. Cuts or no cuts.

[Roger]

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You do not need a degree in physics to see that this was not appropriate material where there could be a fire risk/

[jabba the cat]

The tories will find ways of killing you, be it the lack of Police on the streets or the lack or regs so they can make more muney.
List of MPs who opposed tighter housing regs.
Includes a Mr D Cameron
https://twitter.com/socialistvoice/status/874978062219321345



Well well hasnt taken long before the fire to become political very quickly. It will be used like a sledge hammer to start hammering home the rich versus the poor. Labour v Conservative. Brexit v Non Brexit and as Hogs as said the media just want to sell papers on any whisper or hearsay. even before a proper investigation by the fire brigade investigation department.
RIP all the victims in this tragedy.

[fidgetmidget]

Flat dweller with a fridge that started this fire ?  Where the hell did you get that little gem from JessicaH,  with respect to those that lost their lives in this incident please lets not start repeating anything that papers put into press with many several wild and unsubstantiated theories based on hearsay (eg The Telegraph repeating what a resident said he overheard ! I just found on Google)

When the fire is fully extinguished and it is safe to do so Fire Investigators from the Police Forensic Sevice, London Fire Brigade Fire Investigation Section and the HSE will carry out their investigations to present evidence to Her Majesties Coroner, then only he or she will pronounce how the fire started and How the unfotunate victims lost their lives !  

In the meantime please every thing you read or hear from the press, tv experts and spin doctors for the Council and management company treat with a huge dollop of scepticism and ignore the desire to repeat it here, there or anywhere else !

Hogsy

It does happen Hogs, look it up, fridges set fire all the time. The huge farmhouse in UK a few years ago was gutted whilst the family were on vacation as a result of an exploding fridge, the problem was the lack of firedoors doing their job, no sprinkler system/alarm and the rapidity in which it spread. The owner of the flat on the 4th floor apparently raised the alarm with a neighbour who was interviewed around 6am this morning. He said the tenant was banging on the doors on his floor telling them my fridge has exploded, there is a fire we need to leave.

[macc]

The tories call the cuts to the fire services, IMPROVEMENTS. When challenged to explain how cutting fire stations and firefighter positions, and how the reduction of fire safety officers could possibly not put the lives of London residents at risk, Johnson at first tries to defend the indefensible by simply asserting that his recklessness works and improves safety.

Then, when challenged further, he tells a Labour AM,

to get stuffed.     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN3e-aYUusc

[KJH3]

Some people are as sick as the media, jumping to conclusions. Some just love to stir up the ---- when they know nothing. Let the experts do their job and then we will find what or who us to blame.
Mt heart goes out to those involved,  it's like your very worst nightmare

[Angieh]

Tets I so agree, scoring points is disrespectful to the people involved directly and  Indirectley. What purpose does it serve?

[Tetley]

With respect folks given the gravity of loss its probably best to park it for now.

[JessicaH]

Was aware of this Hogsy as you have mentioned it often so you will therefore know that someone in the fire service should/ would have been expected to have inspected the works for a safety cert.
So what went wrong when letters of concern 2013/2014  ( not false news ) addressed to both the management and fire service were ignored.

Surprised that as an investigator one would have expected you to listen and read with care, something you certainly haven't done with what I posted, so shall repeat.
Perhaps a little more explanation will help.

This morning one of the survivors , from 4th floor, when TALKING to sky news was HEARD to say several times that his neighbour, when knocking on his door to warn him about the fire, apologised, taking responsibility, as it had been caused by his fridge.

Whether or not what the man SAID was true ( or he is covering up for a bomb factory)  only time will tell but NONE of the media made it up.

So please get off your high horse. It doesn't suit you.

[zilnor]

Hogs,
:bravo_2:
Already said earlier that the London emergency services are the best in the world.  :clap: