Hello.

[byrney]

Excuse me.

I have NEVER said that I have no interest in what is happening, and have NEVER said that I will not vote.  Indeed, as regular contributors to the Forum will know, I have absolute interest in what is happening locally, and have always exercised my right to vote both here and in the UK.

I think that you may well have put the final nail in the coffin of your campaign on behalf of the Ciudadanus Party - what a curious way to illicit support.

[clearpockets]

I'm sorry Byrney, but at the risk of alienating a possible supporter, you're talking out of your backside, as you seem to have done most of the time. If you keep this lot in then you will have achieved their aims not yours or those of the responsible electorate. They never have and never will work for the good of the community. But as you have said in other posts, you have no interest in what's happening and you can't be bothered to vote. YET you continue to try and impose your misguided views on every political post on this forum.

If as you say - you aren't interested, leave others to do what they can without you ridiculous copy and pasted selections and stupid comments.
Just saying.

[byrney]

So the answer is "no"  then.  Just as I suspected - and what has been said before - get another Party in and we're back to Square 1.

Thank you anyway, you have now confirmed my decision as to who to vote for and hopefully others will make their own decisions for the good of those poor b*****s with "illegal" property.

Let's keep the current lot in and if they b****r things up we'll get rid of them next time round.

[Fishnthenet]

Are you saying categorically that, if elected, you will not seek to make any further amendments to the PGOU as submitted, other than to comply with the wishes of the Junta?

No point asking me, I am just an un-blinked resident not a candidate!

[Tetley]

Fishinthenet - perhaps you didn't see this bit of my post - "thank you for the offer, but I am not that interested in why, or why not, it was not approved.  I vote as I see fit and expect those that have been elected to deal with that sort of thing on my behalf do so to the best of their ability".

Unlike others, I do not propose to become a fully paid-up Planner in retirement!

I know full well that the document has not been approved - Jim has already told us this so you are telling us nothing new.

What I have previously said is that if a "new lot" is elected (you or some other Party), they may, or may not, decide to b****r about with what has already been discussed at length with the Junta and hence will delay approval further.

Are you saying categorically that, if elected, you will not seek to make any further amendments to the PGOU as submitted, other than to comply with the wishes of the Junta?

:lol:

[byrney]

Fishinthenet - perhaps you didn't see this bit of my post - "thank you for the offer, but I am not that interested in why, or why not, it was not approved.  I vote as I see fit and expect those that have been elected to deal with that sort of thing on my behalf do so to the best of their ability".

Unlike others, I do not propose to become a fully paid-up Planner in retirement!

I know full well that the document has not been approved - Jim has already told us this so you are telling us nothing new.

What I have previously said is that if a "new lot" is elected (you or some other Party), they may, or may not, decide to b****r about with what has already been discussed at length with the Junta and hence will delay approval further.

Are you saying categorically that, if elected, you will not seek to make any further amendments to the PGOU as submitted, other than to comply with the wishes of the Junta?

[Fishnthenet]

http://www.dipalme.org/Servicios/cmsdipro/index.nsf/bop_view.xsp?p=dipalme&ref=20150414

Byrney – to save clearpockets a load of work select the above link. If it is not showing the 14th April 2015 you can use the calendar to go back to that date.

On the list select Junta de Andalucía. Select the second PDF file (PGOU Zurgena)

Please don't take offence when I say it might require more than translation to understand its contents as it is a planning document.

To be fair I will correct clearpockets – it is not a rejection of the plan but shows that the PGOU is still how you would say – work in progress - rather than what you are told imminent approval.

Maybe Jim will give you an understanding of its contents and implications.

[byrney]

"If I didn't know better I'd have thought you were on the psoe candidate list" - not a cat in hell's chance.

"I can tell you that what Candido and Jim Simpson are saying to the Expats is a blatant lie" - really?  Let's hope that Jim, as an ex-Met Officer, doesn't understand the Laws of libel eh?

"8 years of ineptitude" - I think I've asked before, but I'll ask again - What is it that you believe they have done wrong (it's not even eight years, but who's counting)?  What haven't they done that they should have done?  And, out of the humongous "wish list" which you have, which ones can you realistically achieve/afford?

"By trying to scare people into voting for them. From what I can see here it's obviously working" - actually, what I am "scared" of is a Party which hasn't got a clue what is going on, will take at least two years to start to understand the complexities of a Spanish Council, and may seriously jeopardise the progress which has been made on the PGOU which is (if Jim is to be believed, and I do) on the verge of approval.

"There are laws governing what councils can and cannot do with their Plan General. These laws are independent of party politics so your comment about which party is elected is nonsense" - OK, I accept that I often talk "nonsense" despite having had 40+ years working directly within the Political bowels of various Local Authorities in the UK, and so only have a cursory understanding of how it all works.  May I be so bold as to ask what your background and experience is, along with those of the various other Candidates of your new Party before I consider trusting the future of the residents of Zurgena to your care?

"If you would like to see a copy of the document that was sent to our council then I can arrange it. It is in Spanish but I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem for you. On it you will see the reasons why the plan was rejected and why, in it's current form, will never pass regardless under which political banner it is presented" - thank you for the offer, but I am not that interested in why, or why not, it was not approved.  I vote as I see fit and expect those that have been elected to deal with that sort of thing on my behalf do so to the best of their ability.  Why have a dog etc etc?......

Incidentally, receiving a document in Spanish certainly would not be a problem for me.  If I do not understand it, I will either Bing-translate it, or pay for it to be translated.  Nice side-swipe though - hmmmm - you certainly seem to have a way of endearing people to your Party don't you?

"As I have said, it's a lie, a very big one, that most discerning people will see through" - guilty as charged.  I am not a discerning person.  As such, you clearly would not wish me or  people of my ilk to vote for your Party.

"As I said, if they are elected (God help us all) then the PGOU will be done in less than a month" - oh, you mean that you don't want the PGOU signing off within a month?  What's your preferred timescale to keep people in limbo then?

[Popsie]

Isn't everybody entitled to know the reasons for the rejection of the PGOU. Maybe they could be briefly bullet pointed in English and publicised. I expect your answer might be that they are far too lengthy and numerous for that to happen, but maybe!!

[clearpockets]

Byrney if I didn't know better I'd have thought you were on the psoe candidate list. I can tell you that what Candido and Jim Simpson are saying to the Expats is a blatant lie. It's the only way they know to try and cover up their 8 years of ineptitude, by trying to scare people into voting for them. From what I can see here it's obviously working.
There are laws governing what councils can and cannot do with their Plan General. These laws are independent of party politics so your comment about which party is elected is nonsense. If you would like to see a copy of the document that was sent to our council then I can arrange it. It is in Spanish but I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem for you. On it you will see the reasons why the plan was rejected and why, in it's current form, will never pass regardless under which political banner it is presented. As I have said, it's a lie, a very big one, that most discerning people will see through.
As I said, if they are elected (God help us all) then the PGOU will be done in less than a month.

[byrney]

Well clearpockets, you have hit the nail on the head that the decision to approve/not approve the PGOU may well depend on the Party which is elected next week. 

I think people have started to sway towards PSOE (rightly of wrongly) simply because they reckon they might have a better chance of getting it approved with a Council which allies itself with the Regional Party.  Dare people take the chance that by rocking the boat, the PGOU may well be in jeopardy?

By the same token, dare they also take the chance that a different Party may well want to unscramble the current proposals so that they include other things, thereby scuppering the whole thing?

Ooooh, time to gamble folks!

[musicdonna]

Or even days...!!!

[clearpockets]

Sorry to hear that Byrney, but you can't win them all.
Anyway, if the others are successful next week, let's just see how long the PGOU takes, it should only be a matter of weeks.

[byrney]

Sorry your reply vanished clearpockets.  I think we would have all found it enlightening.

"I will just say that thinking people will not believe all that they are told at the door" - correct.

Hence, why I was waiting for something in writing from the various Parties showing their actual "Manifesto" (as opposed to a random "wish list"), and rather than listening to rubbish I am told either on the doorstep or at a "political meeting" which can be refuted at a later date.

Oh well, I'm afraid your Party has lost my vote already, but good luck anyway.

[musicdonna]

If I were a PSOE candidate, my absolute trump card would be to tell people that the PGOU is within a hair's breath of being passed, and that all that stands between me and that approval is the election result... Is it true?  Possibly.  Possibly not.  If I felt any party had integrity, I'd vote for it..  If I felt it hadn't, I wouldn't. Speaking very personally, I find it hard to believe that after all these years it'all just about to happen- with an election coming up.  Am I being cynical or pragmatic?  I hate cynicism so I hope it's the latter. 

What I know for certain is that for four years we've been asking the council for a huge bill board with the PSOE councillors that was put up before the last elections to be taken down in Los Llanos.  It's still there, a real eyesore, obsolete and damaged.  It's not a huge thing given council business, but to remove it would be a small sign that someone cares enough to do something for a citizen in the municipality.  Trust people with the little things and you might then trust them with the big ones!

Donna

[clearpockets]

Byreny, I have just spent about an hour and a half addressing all the points that you raised. I posted it and it has vanished into the ether. I'm not prepared to do it all again. I will just say that thinking people will not believe all that they are told at the door and will vote for who the team they believe will do the most good and not because they want to keep the expat vote whole.

[musicdonna]

Donna, I also apologise unreservedly to YOU!

I was referring to the post which said "I am amazed people are not flocking to these meeting to hear what they have to say and ask questions" (it was not about to vote or not to vote which is a different issue) - I now realise that it was "Fishnthenet" who made that comment and not you.  Please forgive me for my befuddlement.  :tiphat:

I think I was possibly being a bit sensitive about the rampant need (by some) for people to attend meetings, and there has been an inference (not by you) in the past that if you don't attend political meetings, or demonstrations etc about illegal builds, then you are not interested in the topic being discussed.

Thank you, Byrney.  These errors are so easy to make.  I do it regularly on the "for sale" section when I send a question back to someone who is selling, say, a liquidiser, asking if it has any parts missing, and receive a rather confused reply from someone who is actually selling a tortoise.  BTW, ( sorry, off topic!) did you see my recommendation about the new restaurant just off the 3rd HO junction on the A7 going north?  Very nice. Dx

[byrney]

Oh dear. I am sorry, but I'm going to have to reply.

There is a huge difference between a Manifesto and a "wish list".  A Manifesto, as put to the electorate by Ciudadanos, is a declaration of intent, not a list of things they'd like to do if money was limitless.

How on earth is it going to be possible to do the multitude of things in the Manifesto, and, at the same time, reducing the Town Hall income by reducing IBI?  Incidentally, is there seriously any ex-pat anywhere who believes that the IBI bills paid over here are high compared to those in the UK?

As regards the PGOU, please don't tell us that you are going to start tampering with the work already done on this important piece of work and, hence, potentially putting further obstacles in the way of getting it approved?  As far as I am aware, it is in it's final stages and is on the point of approval.

As for the Council's debts, you "imagine that they will show massive debts".  Do you know this for a fact?

I understand that they are much less than they were when the current administration took over, and maybe this is one of the reasons why you have not seen as much progress as you would have done had there been no debts in the first place.

How can you reduce this debt further, carry out your "wish list", and still reduce the amount of income coming to the Town Hall via IBI bills?  It simply doesn't add up.

I doubt very much that the current administration is satisfied (as you say) by roads being filled with dirt and stones rather than tarmac, but it is probably better than nothing at all until funding becomes available for a more permanent solution.

"But, just where has all the town hall budget gone over the last 8 years since I have lived here? It must be quite a lot of money, but where has it been spent?".  I believe that their accounts are public documents and so it should be relatively easy to see how the money has been spent if you are unhappy.

The "half finished bowling green" was opened last week.

Can you advise what the "half finished (and largely un-necessary) projects" are?

All credit to any group of people coming together to try and improve the lot of the Citizens of the area, but is there really sufficient expertise within this Group to take on the complexities of a local Council?  I also feel that potentially splitting the ex-pat vote by having ex-pat candidates in more than one Party is not the best way forward.

[clearpockets]

Byrney, it's possible that very little of our (Ciudadanos) agenda will come to pass. When I speak to people and hand them leaflets, I point out that it is a "wishlist" of things that are dear to most peoples hearts. Of course, it would have to start with a full and comprehensive audit of the town hall accounts, which I don't believe has been done for decades. At the same time, our own representatives in the Junta de Andalucia, will be talking to the relevant department heads in Seville to see exactly what will need to be done with the PGOU to get it passed. Once it is passed we are on the road to getting all the properties in the area sorted.
I imagine that the TH finances will show massive debts, as they did in Arboleas when that administration took over. Our aim would be to reduce those debts as quickly as possible to reduce the amount of interest paid, thus increasing the amount of money available for good works.
Another point is to fill holes in roads with tarmac, not with dirt and stones, which seems to satisfy the current group. Contractors would not be paid until the job was completed and checked. They obviously are now which is why many places look so untidy.
There is much to do in this town and it's not going to happen overnight. But, just where has all the town hall budget gone over the last 8 years since I have lived here? It must be quite a lot of money, but where has it been spent? The half finished bowling green, the ruin of a tanatorio etc. were funded by separate grants, so where has it gone?
If the current administration is returned next Sunday, then we can expect more of the same, half finished (and largely un-necessary) projects, no improvement in the housing situation, they've already failed for 8 years, and nothing that will shout "Come to Zurgena, it' a lovely place".

[byrney]

Donna, I also apologise unreservedly to YOU!

I was referring to the post which said "I am amazed people are not flocking to these meeting to hear what they have to say and ask questions" (it was not about to vote or not to vote which is a different issue) - I now realise that it was "Fishnthenet" who made that comment and not you.  Please forgive me for my befuddlement.  :tiphat:

I think I was possibly being a bit sensitive about the rampant need (by some) for people to attend meetings, and there has been an inference (not by you) in the past that if you don't attend political meetings, or demonstrations etc about illegal builds, then you are not interested in the topic being discussed.

[musicdonna]

OK Donna, having started the thread, and me having returned fresh from a break from the Forum, could I ask you what you think the current incumbents of Zurgena Town Hall have done wrong?

And, what you think any incoming Party might do differently?

And, which Party you are actually suggesting that we ex-pats support?

Having spent my career in literally thousands of Council/Committee/Sub-Committee/Working Party meetings I have no desire whatsoever, in retirement, to attend any meeting full of political drivel.  Spoken word, waffle and spin mean nothing in the real World - trust.

I would respectfully suggest that you are respectful of other people's decision not to attend such meetings, and to say that those of us who choose not to do so have no interest is disingenuous in the least.

What I would like, is a simple A4 piece of paper from each Political Party which tells me what they intend to do for the people of Zurgena, as opposed to what the current administration have done, with a contact point, where I, as a voter, am able to seek clarification.

Not so difficult is it?  Or, is it?

Incidentally, the only one I have got so far is from a new Party called Zurgena Iniciativa Democratica, which this far, get my vote - as I have absolutely nothing to compare it with!

Hi, Byrney,

Welcome back!

Can I rectify one thing, please.  You say;

"I would respectfully suggest that you are respectful of other people's decision not to attend such meetings, and to say that those of us who choose not to do so have no interest is disingenuous in the least."

I have read and re-read my posts on this thread and cannot see anything which would suggest that I am disrespectful of people's decisions to vote or not to vote.    Speaking very personally I'd like to see a change of party as I have seen very little visible improvement in Zurgena in the six years I have lived here and this seems quite different to what I see in other towns around about.  I was told this morning by canvassers that this was not in any way the fault of the local party but due to decisions that were made further away.  A new broom might sweep clean, or it might not, but I think it deserves a chance.  (If I'd been Scottish last week and a previously labour supporter I'd have voted SNP for the same reason!) 

I wouldn't dream of telling people which party to vote for, or infer that they should vote at all, and again, cannot see anything I've written that might suggest I would.  If that has come across then I unreservedly apologise.   I began the thread only because I saw the title in the main menu and there was nothing to read!  What I should love to see is a spreadsheet-type document with topic headings along the top, the different parties to the left, and what each one was proposing to do about the same thing.  That would make a "compare and contrast" exercise much easier. 

I hope that brings some clarity!

Very best wishes,

Donna

[byrney]

Yes, leaflets received thanks.  An impressive Agenda - and a reduction in rates as well.

How on earth is that little lot going to be funded I wonder?

[Lorraine]

I just hope they haven't missed you - not many areas to go, only Palaces and Los Carasoles now.

[byrney]

Thanks for that Lorraine.  I await in writing what they, along with the other Parties what they intend to do for the good people of Zurgena.

Come knocking on my door and giving me loads of b*****t, they will get the same degree of respect that I give to double glazing salesmen, satellite companies and Jehovah's Witnesses.

[Lorraine]

Byrney, Ciudadanos have been and are continuing to visit every house in the Zurgena area and are handing out leaflets that state what they would like to do if they are elected. Dependent on where you live you may yet see them. If you live anywhere near the pool bar, they are in that area tomorrow.

[Tetley]

But thats the devil in the detail Maura..........EU  citizens arnt foreigners,were all supposed to be equal in this 21STcentury EU  mandarine dream
,that isnt working ,ie medical,taxes,transport,citizens rights ie snap a copper in old kent road..... no problem...do it here...now with the new penal code..... problem........
and as for the manual for councillors ..... legally translated into English with sealo ? i doubt it.... all in Spanish and very few here will have that level to hang there shirt on if the court crunch comes.

i think you will make a great councillor,but very few are on your level of experience dealing at the top end here  including those in the Arboleas project.

onwards & upwards debate diffrent veiws is good  :handshake

:tiphat:

[Maura]

My experience of local politics in Spain is the the councils are made up of individuals who represent particular interests. Be that their own neighbourhood, a particular social group or a particular social issue such as persons with a disability etc. And, of course you also have a fair share of the less worthy citizens who represent the interests of crooks.

Foreigners have a right to take part in this process and I do not agree that you need to be educated in Spain to do that.  There is a procedural manual for councillors and a working knowledge of Spanish is a good starting point, of course. Other than that it is down to the individual as to how good a job they do.

[byrney]

OK Donna, having started the thread, and me having returned fresh from a break from the Forum, could I ask you what you think the current incumbents of Zurgena Town Hall have done wrong?

And, what you think any incoming Party might do differently?

And, which Party you are actually suggesting that we ex-pats support?

Having spent my career in literally thousands of Council/Committee/Sub-Committee/Working Party meetings I have no desire whatsoever, in retirement, to attend any meeting full of political drivel.  Spoken word, waffle and spin mean nothing in the real World - trust.

I would respectfully suggest that you are respectful of other people's decision not to attend such meetings, and to say that those of us who choose not to do so have no interest is disingenuous in the least.

What I would like, is a simple A4 piece of paper from each Political Party which tells me what they intend to do for the people of Zurgena, as opposed to what the current administration have done, with a contact point, where I, as a voter, am able to seek clarification.

Not so difficult is it?  Or, is it?

Incidentally, the only one I have got so far is from a new Party called Zurgena Iniciativa Democratica, which this far, get my vote - as I have absolutely nothing to compare it with!

[musicdonna]

Point taken, Steve.  I think I just want the present lot out to give this beautiful town and its citizens something better than they've had!

[Tetley]

So are you saying, Do nothing, Tetley?  In Zurgena the British vote could bring about a change of party-  That might do some good, it might not, but at least it would give the opportunity for something new. It's got to be time for a change here.  Some-one on a related post was arguing Arboleas's corner and saying there  what changes have taken place in the last few years. Maybe someone from the current party could do the same for Zurgena.  And I'd still be interested in what that weird statue thing is just up from the pharmacy, and how much it cost, and who made the decision to commission it in the first place.

No Donna
what im saying is that a Brit that hasent been brought up here/educated here is going to get rings run round them and has no chance of grappling with the system trained mandarins running the job espacialy in areas already facing the government legal hammer,example Arboleas Mayor of 25 years has had to go back to his orignal PSOE  party to move Arboleas Along.
these small self run villages are classed as the out back in the big city smoke by the government  mandarins.
:tiphat:

[musicdonna]

So are you saying, Do nothing, Tetley?  In Zurgena the British vote could bring about a change of party-  That might do some good, it might not, but at least it would give the opportunity for something new. It's got to be time for a change here.  Some-one on a related post was arguing Arboleas's corner and saying there  what changes have taken place in the last few years. Maybe someone from the current party could do the same for Zurgena.  And I'd still be interested in what that weird statue thing is just up from the pharmacy, and how much it cost, and who made the decision to commission it in the first place.

[Tetley]

I just thought I'd write something, what with the elections next week an' all that...

Surely someone must have something to say?!!

Donna

Donna il say somthing  ;)

Any Brit here,that thinks there going to grapple with the political system,without been educated & trained here is in cucko land

,my lads first year town hall admin book,is the thickness of a red building block,he is in a class of 100,all the kids are educated here and have to pass uni exams with a high mark to get on the coarse

,in the first year there are 12 subjects,apparently any student than can pass 8 plus have done very well, the exam they have all just sat was a mock.......the pass mark was 70 % and 19 kids out of 100 passed so bearing all this in mind,what chance really has an imigrant got in any town hall.

:tiphat:

ps i dont want to arse anybody off,its just my veiw wich on the grand scale of things means bxggxer all so if folks want to stand good look to em . :)

[Fishnthenet]

Might have been best to start something of a discussion yourself that you want to raise or have concerns about, but as you ask here are my thoughts.

With both the POSE & Ciudadanos Parties having held meeting for non-Spanish residents, where both list the PGOU as one of their main actions, the turn-out so far at these meeting has been poor!

One would get the impression everything, or they think everything, is okay!

Considering the amount of illegal homes, the numerous court cases (know there are other important issues but these directly affect the ex-pat community) I am amazed people are not flocking to these meeting to hear what they have to say and ask questions.

The balance of the election could well be in the hands of the ex-pats with over a 30% resident population, it would be a pity if we do not take the chance or understand where our vote should go because of a lack of interest but more importantly knowledge of the issues facing Zurgena and who is best placed to resolve them.

Hope I am wrong and over the next meetings people show that they are concerned about the problems so it encouragers those that take control of the council after the 24th continue to work hard for solutions quickly. The PGOU and illegal housing is at the top of the main parties list of priorities, we need to keep it there!

[musicdonna]

I just thought I'd write something, what with the elections next week an' all that...

Surely someone must have something to say?!!

Donna