Devolution Thread

Started by felipe, August 29, 2014, 08:30:02 AM

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webejamin

 ;D Looks like wales has gone too, all but a little pimple :o That picture must be an omen ;D


Tetley

The sad part is,somebody will actualy think Englands been covered in bread crumbs on friday as well.................................

O0
Analogue mechanically  trained 1970,s Fitter  dear living  in a gone digital/tecno mad O Dearie me world......thankfully left behind with it all ,enjoying the bliss of NO phones ,  apps and  shortage of the intellectual, wile still managing to hone underachievement on the day to day in the sun  lol


lmj52

Quote from: ramblarider on September 17, 2014, 10:14:52 AM
The answer to all these difficult questions...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/scottish-independence-man-finds-piece-4270767

Reassuring to see pages of newspapers devoted to such intelligent and informative analyses......

Well that's it then! Wish we had seen this earlier, would have saved so much debate. :lol:
Vida. Disfruta el viaje.

ramblarider

The answer to all these difficult questions...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/scottish-independence-man-finds-piece-4270767

Reassuring to see pages of newspapers devoted to such intelligent and informative analyses......


Hawkeye1

No one has mentioned Loraine (ITV) mornings. Does she go back with the 'deal'?


webejamin

Quote from: Rod on September 17, 2014, 07:59:11 AM
Saw the Dimbleby programme last night with interviews with Brown and Salmond. Hardly any pertinent questions to Salmond. Only topic of note was when Salmond said that it would be good to have two voices in the EU, no mention that they would not be in it.
Saw that too Rod, What always gets me is Salmonds sheer, confident air ;D All the others seem to be filled with dread :o but not Salmond ;D
I think Cameron has a right to be feeling that way :( coz whatever the outcome, he has a few questions to answer :o
I'll be glad when it's all over, I'm fed up hearing bloody bagpipes on the telly all the time. I hope the "no's" win and we all stay together, but whatever happens, there will be wigs on the green for years to come :tiphat: 

ramblarider

I happened to be chatting last night with a friend of mine who is in the INS (Immigration and Nationality Service) in the US. He pointed out that there would be some "serious issues" to resolve with EU/US visas, for example if Scotland left the UK/EU. There would be no agreements in place, and a "new state" would need to negotiate these afresh. One effect is that (in his view) the US would be unlikely to automatically extend the Visa Waiver program to citizens of an independent Scotland - so until (if) an agreement was reached (not a quick process), then Scottish citizens wishing to visit the US would require a "full" visa every trip.  Those visas are far from a formality....

Just one more consequence that no-one has appeared to even consider.



Rod

Saw the Dimbleby programme last night with interviews with Brown and Salmond. Hardly any pertinent questions to Salmond. Only topic of note was when Salmond said that it would be good to have two voices in the EU, no mention that they would not be in it.


byrney


ramblarider

Quote from: byrney on September 16, 2014, 19:43:41 PM
As the UK became a member of the EU with Scotland as an integral part, come a "Yes" vote, would the remainder of the UK have to reapply for membership along with an independent Scotland?

No.



Three Blind Mice

The weans will decide who wins the vote.

It will be a YES, no doubt.

Two more sleeps till Indy day  :tiphat:

hank

It was around 1.2650 at the beginning of Sept.....then the Polls showed that the Yes vote had moved ahead and it reduced to about 1.2450 over the week....moved up again over the next few days and this mid-morning dropped to 1.2480.  Finished the day strongly at 1.2557. Let's hope it stays there. Fingers crossed.
If I had to live my life over, I'd live it over a pub.

Windows was unable to locate the requested file. Would you like a glass of wine instead?

hank

to lmj52,
number 15...the value of the £ against the € is likely to fall if the vote is Yes.
It's already fallen a few cents on the indications shown by the Polls.
If I had to live my life over, I'd live it over a pub.

Windows was unable to locate the requested file. Would you like a glass of wine instead?

byrney

As the UK became a member of the EU with Scotland as an integral part, come a "Yes" vote, would the remainder of the UK have to reapply for membership along with an independent Scotland?

bobthelook

Quote from: lmj52 on September 16, 2014, 17:01:45 PM
Quote from: webejamin on September 16, 2014, 16:08:33 PM
Thank you Imj52
http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/welsh_3

But you can say welch if you want to, it all comes down to the same thing :tiphat: no need for an apology  ;D


No apology due, but lets take this to another thread as we are highjacking this one. Google a bit more you will find WELCH means mant things from a bunch of grapes, to a bear,etc..
It is confused with Welsh as many people cannot pronounce welsh words, or miss use terms such as taffy. Which does NOT mean all welshmen      :tiphat:
:lol: come on Imj52  apologise! Webjamin was quite correct in the context in which the word was used - - and you did call him an ignoramus!!  :lol:
Malayan proverb - Don't think there are no crocodiles because the water is calm.

macc

#182
Salmond and Cameron go to the EU office and say, look, we want to divide our EU membership into two, how could you, the EU object, and then Cameron says, well we,re planning on leaving anyway so i don't know what all the fuss is about, i,m just doing it to help jock here, and i think it will be a hell of a lot less hassle to keep Scotland in than to try and untangle the huge web of applicable treaties, and anyway, when East Germanys reunification came about and they entered the EU overnight, why did all the laws that are been thrown about now not apply to East Germany then, and then the guy behind the desk with the Hitler style mustache says,  the EU is above all else a highly political community. Vhen we face a situation outside our experience or rulebook, politics - of power and ingenuity - take over,  and not this bullshit you are watching on sky news, and BBC. In the face of German reunification in 1990, the former East Germany became part of the EU overnight, yes overnight no problems with a sweeping delay for it to meet most EU rules, because they didn't really meet the criteria, but it saved us loads of snit. Now faced with the opposite, a country like Scotland - that already meets and is part of all EU criteria, laws and processes (with the exception of hassle from Westminster, UK's border, currency, and partial justice opt-outs), the simplest, least complicated approach for all concerned, and to save on overtime, would be for Scotland never to leave us, and that,s what will happen.                                                             

Tetley

Analogue mechanically  trained 1970,s Fitter  dear living  in a gone digital/tecno mad O Dearie me world......thankfully left behind with it all ,enjoying the bliss of NO phones ,  apps and  shortage of the intellectual, wile still managing to hone underachievement on the day to day in the sun  lol

lmj52

This has probably been one of the best threads on the forum for a long time. Will be interesting to see the outcome of the vote tomorrow and the implications over the next 18 months or so.
As has already been said i cannot how people can vote yes or no, as the FACTS have not been told.
1. Border controls or lack of, and impact.
2. Becoming non uk nationals.
3. Scottish passports even if you voted no?
4. Free movement within EU?
5. Those with properties in other countries such as Spain France etc can they stay there?
6. Currency?
7. Banks and businesses cannot have a head office in a foreign country, i,e, Scotland. Change of name for RBS? lol
8. If a no vote, more powers to Scotland anyway? Perhaps Salmond not so dumb! Should this affect English Govt and Welsh Govt?
9. Foreigners, eg Germans Belgians living in Scotland. can they stay?
10 Defence?
11. Oil production: what are the correct figures?
12. Health service
13. Taxation including VAT.
14. House prices
etc  etc   

We MAY know tomorrow
Vida. Disfruta el viaje.

Tetley

Thanks  RR :tiphat:

very depressing if its a yes,specialy when you think of how many Scotts have given there lifes in 2 world wars for European freedom and to save the united kingdom from jack boot Tierney

were going bleeding backwards..... :head
Analogue mechanically  trained 1970,s Fitter  dear living  in a gone digital/tecno mad O Dearie me world......thankfully left behind with it all ,enjoying the bliss of NO phones ,  apps and  shortage of the intellectual, wile still managing to hone underachievement on the day to day in the sun  lol

ramblarider

As as far as is known...

They remain 'in' until 'Independence Day' which would be (according to the SNP, March 24 2016).

After that they cease to be an EU member and Scottish Citizens would no longer be regarded as "UK Citizens". If they have existing UK passports, they could retain them until expiry - when they would have to get a Scottish passport instead.

Correct. As non-EU citizens no right of free movement or reciprocal healthcare.

Unless Salmond really is a miracle-worker and manages to change the minds of the UK government and all the EU governments in less than 18 months...

Tetley

RR at the risk of mantaly tipping you over the edge  ;)

so if its a yes,the scots are out of the EU friday  ? or will it be a gradual process ie Doris & Daves passport runs out 2016 until then they have a uk eu one so no problem here in spain but after 2016 when ther passports run out ,they can no longer apply in England for an English / EU  passport because there place of birth is Glasgow ,so they get Scotish ones ,but they are then classed as an EU  alien so will have no right of free movment or pensioner medical in Spain.

is this correct is,or have i pressed to many grapes to day on the wine making   :drinks:

sorry to sound bleak and i dont want to pxxs anybody off as its a genuine concearn.

:tiphat:
Analogue mechanically  trained 1970,s Fitter  dear living  in a gone digital/tecno mad O Dearie me world......thankfully left behind with it all ,enjoying the bliss of NO phones ,  apps and  shortage of the intellectual, wile still managing to hone underachievement on the day to day in the sun  lol

lmj52

Quote from: webejamin on September 16, 2014, 16:08:33 PM
Thank you Imj52
http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/welsh_3

But you can say welch if you want to, it all comes down to the same thing :tiphat: no need for an apology  ;D


No apology due, but lets take this to another thread as we are highjacking this one. Google a bit more you will find WELCH means mant things from a bunch of grapes, to a bear,etc..
It is confused with Welsh as many people cannot pronounce welsh words, or miss use terms such as taffy. Which does NOT mean all welshmen      :tiphat:
Vida. Disfruta el viaje.

ramblarider

Today, Spain's minister for foreign affairs:

"It is crystal clear that any partner member state that leaves the member state is out of the European Union. If they want to apply again, they would have to follow the procedure of article 49 of the treaties. That means the status of candidates should be granted to the new candidates. This decision has to be taken unanimously. Then it has to go into a negotiation of the 35 chapters. At the end of this negotiation there is also a vote, by unanimity. Then, if again this is granted, it has to go to the European parliament, where a vote is taken by the absolute majority of its members. If at the end of the process, a new vote is granted, it has to go through ratification process of the 28 member states ... It is a process that takes more or less five years"

So - if they vote 'Yes' on Thursday, Scotland WILL be out of the EU for at least 5 years. Further, Spain will have to agree to them re-joining.




webejamin

#174
Thank you Imj52
http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/welsh_3

But you can say welch if you want to, it all comes down to the same thing :tiphat: no need for an apology  ;D

lmj52

Quote from: webejamin on September 15, 2014, 20:30:27 PM
Just another thought. After the results, I think there could be all kinds of problems, for the UK or Scotland. A yes vote may well invoke all kinds of trouble on the streets in Scotland coz they're not known for taking a beating lightly. I suspect the no's will win by maybe 10%, but then all the promises made by Cameron will have to be argued and of course he will welsh on all of them. So, watch for skin and hair flying, whatever the outcome :o   

It's actually to "WELCH" on something NOT welsh. Ignoramus.! :redcard:
Vida. Disfruta el viaje.

BassBunny

A balanced and realistic overview:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/scottish-independence-hits-north-sea-oil-investments-1457261

Plus Ian Wood:

http://www.energyvoice.com/2014/09/scottish-independence-opinion-future-oil-gas-reserves/

I absolutely challenge anyone to say how deep-sea fracking is going to develop if at all. As of this point, it's fantasy.

SNP numbers have been a massive exercise in chicken-counting. //

webejamin

Quote from: PhillipJLloyd on September 16, 2014, 08:36:06 AM
Sorry if I have missed a bit of this but there is so much.
I asked previously how you could change a system to allow 16 yr olds to vote.
Surely because the voting age is 18 in Britain and this vote is still taking place in Britain until the outcome is know, it should still be 18 ???
Hopefully someone can answer this.
(If you can change things like this overnight, they can change anything at the moment anyway ?

David Cameron and his cabinet gave permission for the vote on Scotland's future, they were also fully aware of the 16 year old voters. He didn't need a pencil to work out how that would increase the number of "yes" voters. In the process, maybe he hoped to rid his Tory party of a sizable chunk of opposition in parliament permanently.

Quote from: ramblarider on September 16, 2014, 04:41:10 AM
"The Honourable gentleman should think very carefully about what he has said," and added: "Decisions on UK citizenship remain with the UK Government, but if the vote in the referendum is for a separatist vote then Scotland will become a separate state – it will not be part of the UK"
"That is a very simple fact and I suggest the honourable member recognise that."
Separate and independent means what it says on the tin. The point made by Mrs May in response to that question.
A typical political response, leaving it open to interpretation as many ways as she likes. Of course, everyone knows Scotland will become a separate state. She just avoided saying "NO, Scottish people will not be able to keep a UK passport, but some might"  :whistle:    

Neanderthal

Am I right in remembering that when the thirteen colonies decided to be independent and call themselves the USA, a good many Americans who disagreed with this moved North into Canada? So, if there is a "yes" vote in Scotland, can we expect a large number of migrants moving South into England, as well as those businesses that have already declared their intention to do so?

PhillipJLloyd

Sorry if I have missed a bit of this but there is so much.
I asked previously how you could change a system to allow 16 yr olds to vote.
Surely because the voting age is 18 in Britain and this vote is still taking place in Britain until the outcome is know, it should still be 18 ???
Hopefully someone can answer this.
(If you can change things like this overnight, they can change anything at the moment anyway ?

Tetley

Quote from: byrney on September 16, 2014, 07:24:36 AM
"I find it hard to understand why citizens of a independent Scotland would want a "UK" passport, actually, after all the effort put into becoming a separate entity" - I suspect that IF they had a choice, those people who didn't vote for Independence may well prefer to keep their UK Nationality - and that will be over half the population.

bryns,you have it,if its a Yes vote by say 51/60% the other 40 plus % are going to have the hump,along with the folks kicked out of the uk/eu without even getting the vote,then we will have our English Gov toys out of the pramers,probably been advised to make it as difficult as possible for the new scotland just incase it gives any other folks any grand ideas.....example Catalunia.

RR  i still think your on the money expalaing the vagaries of the all new" Scotish firm " non of this is going to have a happy ending on friday if its a Yes, there could even be anti English feelings on the streets of Scotland wile all the moneys & goodys are been divid up....... at a later date,specialy if it turns out King Ali has F.. up on the sums.

hey ho tick the box  :tiphat:
Analogue mechanically  trained 1970,s Fitter  dear living  in a gone digital/tecno mad O Dearie me world......thankfully left behind with it all ,enjoying the bliss of NO phones ,  apps and  shortage of the intellectual, wile still managing to hone underachievement on the day to day in the sun  lol

ramblarider

Good point. Quite right.

Unfortunately, if the "Yes" vote wins, they may not have a choice in the matter.


byrney

"I find it hard to understand why citizens of a independent Scotland would want a "UK" passport, actually, after all the effort put into becoming a separate entity" - I suspect that IF they had a choice, those people who didn't vote for Independence may well prefer to keep their UK Nationality - and that will be over half the population.

ramblarider

Quote from: NormanM on September 15, 2014, 20:56:25 PM
Sorry, Ramblarider, I think your interpretation of statute is incorrect. I rather hold to my, and Karen's view.


I think you will find Theresa May (much though I dislike her intensely) took advice from the Home Office immigration and nationality specialist lawyers before she answered remarks made by an SNP MP in Parliament. This MP suggested that ""of course after an independent Scotland it will be possible to keep a UK passport".

Her response:

"The Honourable gentleman should think very carefully about what he has said," and added: "Decisions on UK citizenship remain with the UK Government, but if the vote in the referendum is for a separatist vote then Scotland will become a separate state – it will not be part of the UK"

"That is a very simple fact and I suggest the honourable member recognise that."

Also worth recalling that after the Soviet Union broke up, USSR citizens were forced to take up just one of the 'new' nationalities, and lost all rights (for what they were worth) associated with their previous passport.  There are other precedents for this. I find it hard to understand why citizens of a independent Scotland would want a "UK" passport, actually, after all the effort put into becoming a separate entity. Separate and independent means what it says on the tin. The point made by Mrs May in response to that question.

fenners4371

I am Scottish and very proud to be so my 3 sons and wife were born in England and proud to be English, Independence does not take away your pride in your birthright but can and will isolate Scotland. Remember it is not politicians who run the Country it is the Bankers (feel free to replace the B with a letter of your own choice) it is they and not the politicians or the EU or anybody else who would decide Scotlands future they have already brought us to the brink once,that is why I think the Scottish will overwhelmingly vote NO and stay where we belong as part of a Great United Kingdom



NormanM

Sorry, Ramblarider, I think your interpretation of statute is incorrect. I rather hold to my, and Karen's view.

Now, I am not a lawyer - I suspect you are - and indeed, you have provided excellent advice and interpretation here in the past, much of which I have valued.

That said, I have spent too many hours in court as a specialist witness - usually successfuly - so I am reasonably happy with my ability to interpret statute.  I have, in my time, deemed it necessary to dismiss a couple of lawyers who I though were not representing my employers case adequately

However, arguement is the spice of debate. We may have to agree to disagree!
From Normam