Arboleas

[Roger]

My final comment on this is as follows:-
I would not expect to see every document arriving in the Town Hall.
I would however expect to be informed about any serious documents such as this one.
I was not, and this clearly was wrong.
Everyone accepts this, and we have to learn from this mistake.
This is very exceptional because usually Cristobal discusses everything with me.

What seems to have happened is that it was passed to the Secretary to consider its implications, and it was left in the pending tray for too long.
I think the reason is that Cristobal did not want to take any action, and by not informing other Councillors he was protecting us from legal action against us, only the Mayor and the Secretary could be held responsible.
It appears to me as if the Secretary at the 11th hour decided action had to be taken.

Sometimes things are done for the best of intentions, but in hindsight things could have been done differently.
What is important in all this is to remember that nothing could or would be done without all the Councillors being consulted, and we informed the affected residents, either by meeting them or by publishing the facts, before any action is started.
Everything we will do will be in the interests of the affected house owners.

[NormanM]

I am more than satisfied with the ay the local administration is being run, and in the case in question, have no reason to criticise Roger or his team.

However, if I understand correctly an importand document has been witheld by deign by either an ellected member of the Council, or by a paid official.  Can some one tell me if this is the case, or have I misunderstood completely?

[felipe]

I was not particularly picking on anyone just used that statement as an example. Did not intend upsetting anyone.  I simply saw Roger's comment as one of generalisation not one of specifics.

[Gerry]

Me too. I just thought I was missing out on something. Sorry !

[mickandjan]

Felipe - There appears to be an element of pedantic attitudes going on too. There is no need for them. I am sure that we all know what Roger was meaning when he said "As for increasing the workers in the Town Hall.
As every Arboleas resident will know we have done just that, and will be doing more as finance allows." He was generalising as many of us often do.

Quote "As for increasing the workers in the Town Hall.
As every Arboleas resident will know we have done just that, and will be doing more as finance allows"

I am an Arboleas resident, and i didn´t know that.  Does the Town Hall send out news letters or something to every resident, if so I didn´t gert mine.

:lol: Our thoughts exactly!

Hardly stinging criticism Felipe!  I replied jokingly to Gerry's reply as he'd said exactly what had crossed my mind.  Of all the genuine knocking and criticism that goes on on the forum, I do object to being one of the two you've selected for complaining about!

I wholeheartedly support the efforts by the townhall.

[byrney]

Excellent post Felipe.  Spot on.

I know you don't often enter into debates and let us wallow away in our own self-pity.  Such a shame.

Maybe you ought to consider contributing more regularly, particularly where threads start to run down the area and its inhabitants.

Cheers. Paul

[John n Julie]

Nice one Felipe, spot on. 100% agree with your post. idle hands for some people spring to mind.
Regards
John :tiphat: :tiphat:

[felipe]

I rarely post on the forum in debates such as this one. However, I feel that it is time for some intervention from me.

Firstly,  in future, before making statements about the mayor and the team in the Arboleas Town Hall the poster MUST include their full name and not hide behind their forum username.  It is totally unfair that some of the comments made above are done anonymously. Failure to do so will see the post removed. We have not been heavily policing the forum for over two years and it has benefited from that. That said, we will start looking more closely if things start to get over personal and unfounded accusations posted.

There appears to be an element of pedantic attitudes going on too. There is no need for them. I am sure that we all know what Roger was meaning when he said "As for increasing the workers in the Town Hall.
As every Arboleas resident will know we have done just that, and will be doing more as finance allows." He was generalising as many of us often do.

The Arboleas Town Hall are performing far better than some of the posters above believed they would when they were ridiculing Roger and others in the build up to the elections.  The whole team should be commended by EVERYONE in what they are striving to achieve.  Mistakes have been made, Christobal's for example, but show me someone that has never made a mistake and I will call them a liar. It is not a reason to start

For a huge percentage of the time they have got things right.  They are prioritising the illegal builds situation, which I think the majority of us welcome, ahead of things like street lights etc.  Surely it is far more important for the people living under the stress of owning an illegal property to have a team of people working hard for them to relieve that stress.

The letter from the Planning Councillor says it all.  Too many people come on the forum running down Arboleas when it is the one shining light in the region.  I wonder how many of the people posting the bad things are living in Arboleas. Out of the thousands of properties built in the Municipality, only, and I say that with care, a couple of hundred are deemed illegal and these are hopefully being legalised in the coming months. 

So please, can we have a bit more support for the Arboleas and the Town Hall team.  Look at their website regularly for up-to-date information.  The web link is posted enough times on the forum by members and Roger. Far better that, than have the Town Hall sending out a letter every week telling us who is working there and what they are doing.  That would soon bring about a few moaners complaining that money should be better spent than sending out these letters.   :)

[Mark Daniel]

Good Morning Everyone i am danny the councillor for translation in the town hall and will translate this post by the urban Planning councillor Mirella Granados.

Hello everyone i am the councillor for urban planning in the town hall. In the first place i would like to clarify that this council would never hide information from anyone,nor deceive any residents of this town. We are a goverment team and very involved with all the habitants of this town, independent of from where they come from, and any person who has ever needed anything from this town hall can verify it.
Regarding the topic of the cancelation of the licences which we are debating on this forum i beleive there are a few points pending that need clarification. We would have to ask ourselves the following question..Who benefits and who is affected or harmed by the delay that has occurred with the cancelation of these licences. The only people who would be affected by this would be the Secretary of the town hall and the mayor for not acting on this. Evidently the families affected in this topic are the ones that benefit. We have absolutely not taken any decision that harms in any way the owners of these houses, they are the only ones we are trying to help in this process. Quite the contrary because now today the Urbanistic situation of their houses is more favourable than 5 months ago.

So you my be clear..These licences were given by the previous goverment team in the town hall, they are the only ones responsible for this situation and our only objective is to solve the problem. All the decisions that are taken in this town hall are thought of only and exclusively for the benefit of the residents of this municipality.

I consider unjust some of the comments that have been posted on this forum...Everyone that knows Cristobal know very well that he confronts and takes charge to solve the biggest problems in this town and would never forget or leave out anyone,it is his responsibility. Debate of this type generates alarm and bad publicity for the municipality that benefits no one. also this dosent solve anything. The solution comes with daily work.

It is unfortunate that this image has been transmitted of a town hall that is unique and united in their work, all the goverment team English and Spanish is visible daily.

I am very proud to work with all of them, i apologize roger but there was never any bad intention in delaying this process, but quite the contrary.

Best Wishes  Mirella Granados.

[Not_Asking_Much]

I have to agree elcazadore.

Most importantly:

...El debate en este tipo de temas genera alarmismo y mala propaganda para el municipio, que no beneficia a nadie.  A la par que tampoco soluciona nada...

¡Muchas gracias Mirella!  :)

[elcazadore]

gracias por los comentarios mirella continuar el buen trabajo

[mickandjan]

Quote "As for increasing the workers in the Town Hall.
As every Arboleas resident will know we have done just that, and will be doing more as finance allows"

I am an Arboleas resident, and i didn´t know that.  Does the Town Hall send out news letters or something to every resident, if so I didn´t gert mine.

:lol: Our thoughts exactly!

[Mirella]

Hola,  soy la concejal de urbanismo del Ayuntamiento.

En primer lugar me gustaría aclarar que en este ayuntamiento ni se oculta información a nadie, ni se engaña a los vecinos.  Somos un equipo de gobierno muy implicado con todos los habitantes de este pueblo, independientemente de dónde procedan.  Y cualquier persona que haya necesitado algo de este ayuntamiento podrá corroborarlo.

Con respecto al tema de la anulación de las licencias sobre el que se está debatiendo en este foro creo que hay algunas cosas pendientes de aclarar...

Tendríamos que hacernos la siguiente pregunta ¿A quién beneficia y a quién perjudica el retraso que se ha producido en la anulación de las licencias?  Los únicos perjudicados podrían ser el Secretario del Ayuntamiento y el Alcalde, por no actuar; y los beneficiados, evidentemente, son las familias afectadas por este tema.  No se ha tomado absolutamente ninguna decisión que perjudique a los propietarios de las viviendas, (que son los únicos que nos preocupan en este proceso), todo lo contrario.  Hoy la situación urbanística de sus viviendas es más favorable que hace cinco meses.  

Esas licencias se dieron por el anterior equipo de gobierno, ellos son los únicos responsables de esta situación, nuestro único objetivo es solucionarlo.

Todas las decisiones que se toman en este ayuntamiento, se hacen pensando única y exclusivamente, en el beneficio de los vecinos del municipio.

Me parecen injustos algunos comentarios que se han dicho en este foro.  Todo el que conoce a Cristóbal sabe que afronta todos los problemas y no se queda al margen de ninguno.  Todos sabemos quién se encarga de gestionar la solución de los grandes problemas en este ayuntamiento, es su responsabilidad.

El debate en este tipo de temas genera alarmismo y mala propaganda para el municipio, que no beneficia a nadie.  A la par que tampoco soluciona nada.  La solución viene con el trabajo diario.

Es lamentable que se haya trasmitido está imagen de un ayuntamiento único, y unido; en el que el trabajo de todo el equipo de gobierno (ingleses y españoles) es visible diariamente.  Yo estoy muy orgullosa de trabajar con todos ellos.

Que me disculpe Roger pero nunca hubo mala intención en retrasar el proceso, sino todo lo contrario.

Un saludo,

[Gerry]

Quote "As for increasing the workers in the Town Hall.
As every Arboleas resident will know we have done just that, and will be doing more as finance allows"

I am an Arboleas resident, and i didn´t know that.  Does the Town Hall send out news letters or something to every resident, if so I didn´t gert mine.

[byrney]

No probs wbj - I can get myself into enough trouble with things that I have said without getting into trouble for tings I haven't!!  Cheers.  And a very Merry Christmas to you too.

[webejamin]

Don't drink in the week gus, well, not much :notopic: Now back to the topic in hand :tiphat:
Sorry Tetley, mea culpa :tiphat:

[gus-lopez]

WBJ - "I think King Saints question matters very much byrney" - I agree.  I never said it didn't.  I think that was mercedes.

OMG :o byrney :o how on earth could I drop a clanger like that :crazy: My most humble apologies to yourself and mercedes :tiphat: and I wish you both a very merry Christmas ;D  :drinks:

:rofl: you started early today ?  :drinks:   :lol:

[webejamin]

WBJ - "I think King Saints question matters very much byrney" - I agree.  I never said it didn't.  I think that was mercedes.

OMG :o byrney :o how on earth could I drop a clanger like that :crazy: My most humble apologies to yourself and mercedes :tiphat: and I wish you both a very merry Christmas ;D  :drinks:

[byrney]

WBJ - "I think King Saints question matters very much byrney" - I agree.  I never said it didn't.  I think that was mercedes.

[webejamin]

I think King Saints question matters very much byrney. If the letter was received in May and it was important to act on it, but it was withheld by someone until the last minute, then something is wrong in the Town Hall and should be sorted. If nothing is wrong, I can't see the point in the report in the first place. :tiphat:

[King saint 76]

Mercedes, get your head out of the sand.

[mercedes]

Roger, when did you become aware of the "letter"?

What does that matter in the context of resolving this issue? Or are you only interest in a blame culture?

Roger and the T/H team are working tirelessly to resolve not just this issue but many many others and answering pointless questions only adds to their workload.
Anyone who has been involved in similar such cases (in the UK) understands how these things work and can see the scenario in the case.

Lawyer acting for the Junta/National Police - "so these houses are on rustic land and you are hoping to get a guilty verdict in Court! Ok what action have you taken to remove the premises?

Junta/National Police - "None because the T/H is working on the Urban Plan to include these houses"

Lawyer - "Well if you want any chance of winning this case you had better start proceeding irrespective of the T/H's plans. Taking action will strength your case"

This is all about securing a guilty verdict in my opinion. The T/H's urban plan No.14 is independent of this case and hopefully when approved will give these home owners the security we all so earnestly want. 

[Maura_Hillen]

Any home owner affected by this issue should seek independent legal advice on the matter. Otherwise, they risk prejudicing their interests.

[King saint 76]

Roger, when did you become aware of the "letter"?

[Roger]

I do not understand the point here.
The status of the land has never changed for these 7 houses.
The residents were given false information by lawyers, the town hall and the builder in 2004.
In 2008 the National Police informed them that the land was always rustic.
Since then these owners have been living in limbo, unable to sell their homes and uncertain about the future.
We are close to solving that problem with Innovation 14.
In the meantime we have the criminal case against the previous politicians and technicians going on.
This has complicated the issue, leading to the current problem.
What is important is that we are keeping the owners fully informed, and are working on their behalf and in their interest, unlike other councils.

As for increasing the workers in the Town Hall.
As every Arboleas resident will know we have done just that, and will be doing more as finance allows.
I accept the criticism that we are trying to do too much too quickly.

But so many people have been waiting so long to get legal documents for legal houses. And we have such a backlog of work after 8 years of neglect.

[webejamin]

Curiouser and curiouser ??? methinks this could be an old tale ???

[King saint 76]

From openyoureyes 29th November:
My lawyer tells me all is not so well in Arboland...

Check the status of your land using www.goolzoom.com (if you don't want to pay from the land registry office).

At the top choose pol y parc.
Then choose Almeria as the province
Then choose Arboleas as the municipal
Then enter your pol and parc numbers
Then hit the magnify glass
Click on the resulting reference number

As an example, pol 8 parc 179 gets you to the end of Los Carrascos.  Interested parties can move around and click on housey looking things.  You will find more rustic than urban and more joint parcles than individual ....

If you land is rustic and or on a huge plot, the junta also know this .....  

Peace
.
.
.
.
.
Reply from Roger the same day :
Regarding the comment from "openyoureyes"
If this is what your lawyer told you I suggest you change your lawyer.

These web sites are rarely accurate and always out of date.
Many Spanish lawyers do not understand urban planning law, that is why so many of their clients are in a mess.

The Catastro Office (an official department of the central government) has currently registered all the houses in Arboleas as URBAN.
The official Urban Planning Map registered in the Official Boletin of Almeria by the Junta shows all the houses registered as URBAN, with the exception of the 270 which are in the process of urbanising.

This registration cannot change.
When people say that one day it is urban and the next it is rustic is due to a simple reason.
The lawyer or the town hall tells you it is urban, when in fact they are lying.
Passing a plan in the local town hall does not make it urban.
You have to go through the full urban planning process, getting approval by all the various regional government agencies, and finally get official approval from the Junta Planning Department.
It takes a long time and a lot of work.
In Arboleas we did this with Innovation 13. We are now carrying out the same process with Innovation 14.
It takes several years of hard detailed work, but in the end you have official legal registration of the land as urban.
It is the only correct way to do it.
In Arboleas we understand this, and I have been totally transparent and have explained the process in detail for Arboleas residents.
I am sorry if others do not understand.


I and a couple of others were abused for having a view that differed from Rogers a couple of weeks ago.

[byrney]

As has been stated before to me, as I do not live in Arboleas I (along with others in that situation) should refrain from comment on such issues.

However, I make no apolgoies for doing so.

My observation is that Roger (a Councillor/decision-maker) and his colleagues, together with what appears to be only a handful of paid Council Officials, do not have a cat-in-hell's chance of dealing with the workload that exists within the Council.

Clearly, Roger is seemingly (with respect to him) totally bogged down with the day-to-day administration and minutae of the Council, when, actually he ought to have a team of workers around him for doing that for him, so that he and his fellow Councillors can concentrate on the more important aspects.

I know that Roger seems to be doing his level best to turn things round and, in part, appears to be very successful (and long may that continue).

However, isn't it now time for the Council, as a corporate body, to take stock and decide what additional support is needed to press ahead with what needs doing.

As Roger has already stated, come Innovation 14, "the workload will be daunting".  Yes, it undoubtedly will - especially if those already doing the work try to take on the extra work necessary.

IBI bill and car tax monies will hopefully come rolling in shortly and some of those monies should surely be gainfully spent on employing some much-needed support.

God forbid it, but if Roger is taken ill, there will be a huge problem.

[ES]

Roger with all respect, nobody doubts that you are very busy doing all of the things that you list above, but as somebody once said to me when I was posted to a war zone  "You knew what to expect when you signed on", so I would say get on with it.

What is in question  is, your banging on so much about openness and transparency,  and then say "I have now published the latest update on Arboleas Live".  No you haven't, you have completely changed the facts in your Editorial Comment except for the first few lines re the background.  

Looks more like "All smoke and mirrors" to me.

In fact, you have basically burnt the original file and then rewrote another one, to suite who........????  However the original still exists.

Such behavour beggars belief.

Come Roger, you owe it to the constituents to come clean with what went on.  

Now, more than a buggers muddle.  The plot does thicken.

[Roger]

I have total confidence in Cristobal's integrity, hard work and total commitment to solving the problems for all the residents of Arboleas.
We have worked together for three and a half years, for the first year in preparing our plan for Arboleas, and the past two and a half years in implementing the plan.
We discuss everything. With the horrendous pressure of work day after day after day, it is not surprising that sometimes things do not always proceed perfectly.
But it has been sorted in a friendly way and with total unanimity (strange in politics!) and with the interest of the house owners as our first priority.

It is impossible for people to understand the huge number and complexity of the problems we are still facing, almost entirely because of the total chaos and mess we inherited.
At times we expect the work load to reduce, but every day it seems to grow.
When next year we get approval for Innovation 14 the work load in legalizing the remaining 270 houses will be truly daunting.

Just today:-
we had joint meetings about many legal problems facing the Council;
the problem with the building licences which I have reported;
discussions with the official to continue with the PFEA work force;
discussions with Promar regarding the embargo in El Rincon, the court decision about land debt in La Perla, and obtaining documents for two rustic houses we have managed to squeeze onto urban land;
discussions about the report we are preparing for the public about the urban works we have carried out:
approval of the agreement with the Catastro Office to register change of ownership directly by the Town Hall;
approval of the financial budget for 2014, including the projected income from Madrid, Seville and IBI;
discussion of the applications for the up coming vacancy for Justice of the Peace;

plus the usual list of personal problems we deal with every day.

I started this journey when I set up the Help Desk in May 2009, and am not likely to stop now.
We always said the project to sort out Arboleas would take 8 years.
We are just 2 ½ years into this work.

[Karen4]

It was stated originally that it was the mayor who withheld the letter...I copied the piece and this is the relevant bit:
"In May this year the head of Urban Affairs in the Department of the Environment in Seville wrote to the Town Hall, instructing the Council to cancel these licences. The Mayor, Cristobal, filed the letter without action."
The original piece is also reported in full on a different forum, as well as the update showing the mayor initially then the town hall secretary.

[webejamin]

If it wasn't all so serious it would make a great comedy I'm sure I read that it was the Mayor withheld the letter, maybe it was a mistake? the plot thickens :whistle:

[Tetley]

Happy x mass folks,im going to hang upside down in the wardrobe for a couple of weeks,as im hearing mi voices again......... :crazy:

Luv ti yer all

Steve & family x   :tiphat:

[doreen1]

Unbelievable :head

[freddie]

Can I ask why last nights post on arboleas live made the Mayor the  person who withheld the information and todays post says the legal person which is correct?