padron post by Roger

[Optomist]

They took mine off me also in 2001 with the same expiation but they were correct , whenever i have been asked for it i used to show the plastic card , now the green A4 or my Seguro card , never been a problem , its only the number that's ever needed . The wife and Daughters were done a couple of years later and their NIE certs were returned to them .

[fidgetmidget]

Interesting reading Rambla and thank goodness someone like you took the time to find out what is what and what is not.  However, any further movement on the Spanish healthcare entitlement to which Gus referred earlier in the topic?

Also when we went to Almeria to get our green residencia certificate, the guy took our NIE certificates and refused to give them back, stating we would have no use for them and they would now be defunct as the residencia certificate bares the same NIE number should anyone wish to see it or take a note of it.  I went back a few minutes later and took them off his desk, it cost us 90 euros each to get them I didn't want to give them away,he almost bit my hand off, we left without them...is this correct?
FM

[Tetley]

 :notopic:

RR  im just white washing the shed sat having a cuppa.... thinking that if someone rented you a free bedroom in Arboleas and you stood for election and were then elected.... :o  as a sort of people  legal champion.... the glee on our sp and uk councilors faces on your first day... as they welcom you to be amongest  them   ;)

wonderfull  :tiphat:

[atnuj]

Thanks Ramblarider- all that is much clearer now - I have worked out the cause of my confusion. When someone (a notary for example if I am translating for someone who doesn't speak spanish) asks me for my NIE I usually give them the A4 green Alien registration, which they seem to take happily. It's clear to me now that I should look in the attic for my old NIE certificate from way back when. The numbers are the same of course and as Gus-Lopez pointed out that same number is on my spanish driving license. That's me done on this topic then. With thanks

[gus-lopez]

RR's post is spot on. Just house deeds, rental agreement & passport required to register on the padron.

To obtain a new one recently , just a spanish driving licence .

[ramblarider]

You said:-

"The very worst that could happen to you if you had not applied for a certificate when you should have done so is a small, one-off fine. It is approximately 300 Euros. No further action can be taken, and it in no way affects your actual residence status as that is determined by treaty provisions, not by pieces of paper issued in Spain."

I think you were talking about the Alien's certificate (Gloss it with the name EU citizen's certificate if you must - we have to stand in the same queues as the rest of the world down in the Almeria Alien office)

But Roger said you need that European Registration certificate to get your Padron Certificate? So how can that certificate be nothing to do with the padron ?

The Padron is (or should be) based on a different measure of residence. All you should need to sign the padron is ID (Passport), an NIE number, and proof of address in the area (house deeds, letting agreement, utility bill). I am on a padron, and that's all I needed...

The problem with the 'aliens certificate', is that it is based upon a very peculiar measure. Ninety CONSECUTIVE days in a country. Now... I actually managed to talk the other week to one of the people who was originally involved in drafting this thing and learned some interesting background. When the European Directive that created this certification process was drawn up, the lawyers and politicians involved were very aware that it had a potential for abuse, in that they knew very well that some countries might try to use it as a de facto 'residence permit', and they built in some traps to try to prevent that, as this was totally contrary to the entire spirit and intent of the Directive, which was to REMOVE bureaucracy and red tape impeding EU Citizens who wished to relocate. So... they  drew it up in such a way that (they hoped) it would make this very difficult.

1) They deliberately chose 90 consecutive (not cumulative) days. This creates a 'one-day-reset'. Pop over the border and back again, and the clock starts again at zero.
2) They limited (by law) the supporting documents that could be demanded with any application.
3) They banned its use as an Identity document.
4) They banned any authority from requiring production of the certificate to "complete any other administrative formality" as proof in such cases could be "provided by any other means".
5) They gave countries a total opt-out of this (hoping most would see it as total waste of time, and indeed, most do).
6) They did not foresee and had no expectation of any country requiring individuals to carry this certificate around with them, however, I have personally clarified with Brussels that this would be viewed in a very dim light indeed, and is unlawful.

The 90 consecutive days rule is quite important, as you can stay here for a whole series of 89 days (indefinitely) with zero requirement to register. You would, however, be resident in other senses (fiscal residency, for example). You 'real' residence could also be here.

It would be expressly unlawful under Article 25 (1) of Directive 38/2004 EC for any civil authority in Spain to demand production of the 'registration certificate' as a prerequisite to 'completing any other administrative formality' (such as signing onto the Padron, which is compulsory).

It is perfectly lawful for them to require an NIE certificate, however.

Several people have asked why my 'qualifications' are in regard to EU Law. I will only address this once as much of my work has been of a 'sensitive' nature. My personal speciality is in environmental law and the law insofar as it relates to the biological sciences. My interest in law is secondary to my prime interest, and career, in biology and ecology. In all those capacities, I have served as a advisor to a number of government agencies, in the UK, the US, and further afield. I have also served on official UN and EU advisory boards. I am not a 'general purpose' solicitor, and have no interest in that field. I do still serve on the board of a UK registered Charity, however, which does keep me reasonably up to speed on current probate, inheritance and similar matters. My interest in immigration law stems from living in a number of different countries over the years, and having to personally negotiate reams of pointless 'red tape' which I hate with a vengeance (and I like the people who create it even less). I have found the best weapon in such cases is to know the subject better than they do. That is usually not too difficult!!!

[atnuj]

I'm sure you are quite correct, but would respectfully ask you to help me understand by being a little more transparent please - I'm just a thick engineer and you sound like a sharp lawyer..... but my bridges haven't fallen down....

You said:-

"The very worst that could happen to you if you had not applied for a certificate when you should have done so is a small, one-off fine. It is approximately 300 Euros. No further action can be taken, and it in no way affects your actual residence status as that is determined by treaty provisions, not by pieces of paper issued in Spain."

I think you were talking about the Alien's certificate (Gloss it with the name EU citizen's certificate if you must - we have to stand in the same queues as the rest of the world down in the Almeria Alien office)

But Roger said you need that European Registration certificate to get your Padron Certificate? So how can that certificate be nothing to do with the padron ?

Now, no way am I trying to be impertinent or wind you up or anything, as I think you, Gus-Lopez, Tetley and many others including Roger, do a good job bringing these topics up so we mere mortals can try and understand what is going on around us

Nothing whatever to do with the padron.

[ramblarider]

Nothing whatever to do with the padron.

[atnuj]

So, if you are right, a weight is now off my back - it will only cost me 300 Euros to avoid paying the 2 euros to go on the Padron - that's a real relief - Whew

[Marietw]

I was actually interested because I know someone this happened to,  but until my husband was 65 we had the blue travel health card from UK and registered with Doctor through Albox Medical Centre.

Marie.

[gus-lopez]

If you live here for more than 183 days in a year you are considered as resident and must make a tax declaration unless you fall under any of the exemptions. If you work you have to make a declaration no matter what. If you get it wrong in figuring out if you should or should not make a tax declaration you are breaking the law and may get fined if you get found out.
So far as the padron I don't know if it is obligatory or not to sign on if you live here, but if you do why wouldn't you?
I saw in the papers one day last week that the local police can check you against the padron if you seemed to them to be living here indefinitely. If they prove that you are, and are not on the padron where you are living they have the power to finger youur collar as an illegall immigrant.
So all I would say is it pays to check your particular situation and make your own judgement if you do a tax return and/or sign on the padron. Most of the local lawyers and advisors will do you a free half hour chat on these subjects and help you make that judgement

1) 183 cumulative days makes you tax resident (fiscal resident), correct.

2) No EU Citizen can be regarded, under any circumstances, as an "illegal immigrant". This is what I sense a lot of people find it hard to understand. There are virtually NO POWERS of either a) Deportation or b) Exclusion available except under the most extreme circumstances. Without getting too technical, unless you are a major terrorist or involved in organised or very, very serious crime you *cannot* be expelled or excluded. You absolutely cannot be expelled or excluded on economic grounds. There are only a handful of deportation/exclusion cases a year throughout the entire EU. Example:

http://www.beltramiandcompany.co.uk/Blog/Entry/criminal-defence/european-court-rules-on-deportation-of-eu-citizens.html

In short, you have to be a very serious threat to the public or the state to be subject to deportation or exclusion.

The very worst that could happen to you if you had not applied for a certificate when you should have done so is a small, one-off fine. It is approximately 300 Euros. No further action can be taken, and it in no way affects your actual residence status as that is determined by treaty provisions, not by pieces of paper issued in Spain.

& once you have been resident for more than 10 years the only thing you can be possibly deported/thrown out for is terrorism/national security.

[ramblarider]

If you live here for more than 183 days in a year you are considered as resident and must make a tax declaration unless you fall under any of the exemptions. If you work you have to make a declaration no matter what. If you get it wrong in figuring out if you should or should not make a tax declaration you are breaking the law and may get fined if you get found out.
So far as the padron I don't know if it is obligatory or not to sign on if you live here, but if you do why wouldn't you?
I saw in the papers one day last week that the local police can check you against the padron if you seemed to them to be living here indefinitely. If they prove that you are, and are not on the padron where you are living they have the power to finger youur collar as an illegall immigrant.
So all I would say is it pays to check your particular situation and make your own judgement if you do a tax return and/or sign on the padron. Most of the local lawyers and advisors will do you a free half hour chat on these subjects and help you make that judgement

1) 183 cumulative days makes you tax resident (fiscal resident), correct.

2) No EU Citizen can be regarded, under any circumstances, as an "illegal immigrant". This is what I sense a lot of people find it hard to understand. There are virtually NO POWERS of either a) Deportation or b) Exclusion available except under the most extreme circumstances. Without getting too technical, unless you are a major terrorist or involved in organised or very, very serious crime you *cannot* be expelled or excluded. You absolutely cannot be expelled or excluded on economic grounds. There are only a handful of deportation/exclusion cases a year throughout the entire EU. Example:

http://www.beltramiandcompany.co.uk/Blog/Entry/criminal-defence/european-court-rules-on-deportation-of-eu-citizens.html

In short, you have to be a very serious threat to the public or the state to be subject to deportation or exclusion.

The very worst that could happen to you if you had not applied for a certificate when you should have done so is a small, one-off fine. It is approximately 300 Euros. No further action can be taken, and it in no way affects your actual residence status as that is determined by treaty provisions, not by pieces of paper issued in Spain.

[atnuj]

If I were to try and put two + two shades of grey together, this concern from the Town Halls to prune their Padron's is farily new. It used to pay them to leave people on the Padron even if they knew they had left, as they kept collecting their share of the money from the regional government tied to the numbers on the Padron. That equated to seats on the council (bigger the Padorn - more councillors and the higher the Mayoral stipend), teachers in the shools etc..
So why the pruning frenzy? Because the downside of having people on the Padron for more than 5 years is that they fall out of the safety net of their home country and "become a burden" on the state where they live, as is mandated by Brussels after that 5 years. Hence the tie-in to health entitlement.....
The newspaper article I referred too was still in the paper recycling box and I found back the reference:-
Ideal of Wednesday 13 Feb Page 23, under EnBreve_
Headline - Finding "paperless people" via the Padrom is Legal.
It relates to a fight between the Basque Regional Government and the Spanish National Government and reports the opposing arguements.
The Basques don't want the police in their town Hall records, citing it as an infringement of the Data Protection Act.
The Central Government argues that their obligation to find and deport illiegal immigrants takes precedent over that Data Protection Act.
The Constitutional Court ruled for Central Government against the Basques. Thus the Police (and I don't think they mean your freindly local bobby here!) can use the Padron and must be given access to it by the Town Halls.
Now I also imagine they could be a little pragmatic about a reasonably funded Brit who hasn't got around to getting on the Padron, but then it was a Brit house they demolished wasn't it?
Perhaps your man in the Town Hall coyuld comment on my conspiracy theory?
Ah well..... it's been a nice sunny day, but the mist is now dropping to cloak the valley and allow unseen exunt :-)

[Lesley and Pete]

FM - that was certainly my understanding too, (ie not paying into the Spanish system or over pension age = no access to the full range of Spanish heath care), otherwise I certainly wouldn't be working my butt off to pay 274 euros a month Seguridad Social as an autonomo business after having been here for well over 5 years.  When I spoke to my accountant at the start of January she indicated that that situation  had not changed.

Lesley

[fidgetmidget]

Ramblarider perhaps you can clarify this for us.  We were under the impression that if not a student or under pensionable age, not working and contributing, then you were not entitled to Spanish healthcare irrespective of being here in excess of 5 years.
FM


[/quote]

Up here anyone registered on the Padron had entitlement to healthcare. Now anyone who has permanent residence, no entitlement to healthcare in any other EU country, no income/income below 100k, no benefits or pension from original country is entitled to full spanish healthcare under the new rules.  Exactly the same as the Spanish are.
Basically if you were registered as resident before april 24th 2012  & have income below 100k, you are legally entitled to healthcare.

This is why they had to bring in the new healthcare rules otherwise anyone who had there feet on the ground was entitled.
To Marietw, you should put in an official complaint if you comply with the above & get Solvit to work on your behalf.


[/quote]

[atnuj]

If you live here for more than 183 days in a year you are considered as resident and must make a tax declaration unless you fall under any of the exemptions. If you work you have to make a declaration no matter what. If you get it wrong in figuring out if you should or should not make a tax declaration you are breaking the law and may get fined if you get found out.
So far as the padron I don't know if it is obligatory or not to sign on if you live here, but if you do why wouldn't you?
I saw in the papers one day last week that the local police can check you against the padron if you seemed to them to be living here indefinitely. If they prove that you are, and are not on the padron where you are living they have the power to finger youur collar as an illegall immigrant.
So all I would say is it pays to check your particular situation and make your own judgement if you do a tax return and/or sign on the padron. Most of the local lawyers and advisors will do you a free half hour chat on these subjects and help you make that judgement

[Tetley]

Vert intresting Gus....  :tiphat:

[gus-lopez]

just out of intrest how did you manage to get on cover here during your 50,s did you work on contract or were you self employed ?

i was under the impression  that you can only get medical cover here if your a uk pensioner or a uk student ie a school kid here apart from that you have to pay in  / work a min amount of hours.

:tiphat:

Up here anyone registered on the Padron had entitlement to healthcare. Now anyone who has permanent residence, no entitlement to healthcare in any other EU country, no income/income below 100k, no benefits or pension from original country is entitled to full spanish healthcare under the new rules.  Exactly the same as the Spanish are.
Basically if you were registered as resident before april 24th 2012  & have income below 100k, you are legally entitled to healthcare.

This is why they had to bring in the new healthcare rules otherwise anyone who had there feet on the ground was entitled.
To Marietw, you should put in an official complaint if you comply with the above & get Solvit to work on your behalf.

[Tetley]

just out of intrest how did you manage to get on cover here during your 50,s did you work on contract or were you self employed ?

i was under the impression  that you can only get medical cover here if your a uk pensioner or a uk student ie a school kid here apart from that you have to pay in  / work a min amount of hours.

:tiphat:

[Marietw]

Concerning Health Care if someone can explain please!   Registered with a Doctor for over 5 years, have green A4 Residencia Certificate, but on turning 60 last year am removed from Doctors list and told to get Private Health Insurance who then won't cover existing conditions that were being treated by the Doctor.  Where do I stand now?

Thanks,
Marie.

[Chrissy H]

No-one is disputing any of that (apart from poster 'ES', it seems).

You are perfectly entitled to maintain the Padron in that way. Nothing wrong at all there.

The problem arose when you answered the OP and failed to point out that they were clearly exempt from the "health insurance" and "income" requirements and could now simply register as permanent resident on an unconditional basis. Instead, you gave the impression that they had to comply - this being entirely wrong.

I agree with you Ramblarider, the origional responce was misleading.

Chris

[ramblarider]

No-one is disputing any of that (apart from poster 'ES', it seems).

You are perfectly entitled to maintain the Padron in that way. Nothing wrong at all there.

The problem arose when you answered the OP and failed to point out that they were clearly exempt from the "health insurance" and "income" requirements and could now simply register as permanent resident on an unconditional basis. Instead, you gave the impression that they had to comply - this being entirely wrong.

[Roger]

I am very surprised at the over reaction to a simple piece of information.
I am passing on this factual information to the residents of Arboleas, as I have a duty to do.
If people wish to ignore it that is up to them.

All Town Halls maintain a Padron of all residents on behalf of the national authorities. It is not the Town Hall information but is lodged in the central computer.
All Town Halls are obliged by Spanish law to ensure that the Padron is correct and up to date. This applies to ALL residents in the town.
As a result the Town Halls have to carry out regular checks to ensure that those on the Padron are still resident in the town.
For Spanish citizens who move between towns there is a system to remove them from the original town Padron when they register on a new Padron.
This system also works for non Spanish residents, but does not work for people who leave Spain without informing the authorities.
As a result many people remain on the Padron who have left the country, possibly years ago, of all nationalities.

In order to help the Town Hall carry out this check the National Police inform the Town Halls of those residents who last registered with them over 5 years ago.

No one is required to re register in Almeria.
No one is required to provide further proof of entitlement to be here.
You are simply being asked to turn up to the Town Hall every 5 years to say, I am still here.
It enables the Town Hall to remove those who are on the Padron but who should not be.
It costs nothing, unless you ask for another copy of the Padron Certificate, in which case it costs 2 euros.

What will happen when the National Police check the padron and find you are not on it and have not been for over 2 years?
I do not know.
But logically I assume they will remove you from the Register of Permanent Residents, since you will no longer be a registered as living in the town.
What affect that will have on other issues I do not know.
Certainly it will debar you from assistance from Social Services.

To me it seems so simple to ensure that you are registered on the Town Hall Padron.

[jimmybeen]

'Claire32' states in the first post on this thread "......I was told on this forum that I had to prove that I had adequate health insurance or be in the social system." I wonder where or by whom she was told this ??? As for a renewal this has never been the case!
This topic has been done to death in recent weeks yet still some folk can't seem to understand it.   

[ramblarider]

Absolutely correct. The best course would be to register as a permanent resident.

Also, by way of further clarification (if any is needed, as we have covered it multiple times before) if you are "economically active" in Spain, no-one can demand income/resources proof OR proof of medical insurance from you, even for a new application. These 'conditions' only apply to people who are not working, not seeking work, and who are retired in some form or other.

[gus-lopez]

This cannot be fair or right. My recidencia ran out in December.  When I was going to renew it I was told on this forum that I had to prove that I had adequate health insurance or be in the social system.  I don't have either. So what do we do? I await your reply Roger.

If you had the 'old' tarjeta then you can register on the Certificate of" Registration on the Register of European Citizens resident in Spain", If you so wish without requiring healthcare or having to prove income. The fact that you had a card means you have been here in excess of 5 years , therefore the new requirements do not apply to you.
Anyone who was registered as living here before April 24th 2012 is not affected by the new requirements.
An out of date 'old tarjeta' can be registered on to the new certificate ,if you so wish, for up to 4 years.

[ramblarider]

I note this quote in the original 'Padron' announcement:

"1. If you have a Tarjeta de Residencia which has come to the end of its 5 years expiry date it is necessary to change this to a Certificate of Registration on the Register of European Citizens resident in Spain"

This is factually incorrect. As pointed out (multiple times) permanent resident status is achieved automatically after 5 years residence. Citizens do not have to 'apply' for it. The simple act of being here for 5 years grants it. Therefore, if someone has been here for 5 years, they have it. They ARE permanent residents.

As is very clear (including from the above official guides) there is no obligation whatsoever to have any certificate to prove this, but as the second guide states:

Your right of permanent residence as a Union citizen is evidenced by a document certifying permanent residence which must be issued as soon as possible upon application. You may not be obliged to apply for it but it might be helpful to prove your status as a permanent resident.

It is also worth noting that it is unlawful for any official (including the police) to demand production of a registration certificate, or certificate of proof of permanent residence, in pursuit of any other "administrative formality":

Article 25 Directive 2004/38:  "possession of a registration certificate [...], of a document certifying permanent residence, of a certificate attesting submission of an application for a family member residence card, of a residence card or of a permanent residence card, may under no circumstances be made a precondition for the exercise of a right or the completion of an administrative formality, as entitlement to rights may be attested by any other means of proof".

Again, anyone confronted with demands like this should consider seeking help from SOLVIT.

The problem here is not EU law. It is not even Spanish law (Spanish law does actually translate EU law quite well and in no way conflicts with anything cited in the guides linked), but rather, the problem is a lack of understanding and lack of education on the application of these laws by officials.

That is the real problem.

[ramblarider]

As for the requirement to have health insurance, this is also required under Spanish Law.
If this requirement is against EU rules I await an appeal to the European Court.
In the meantime it is the law.

I am sure Roger means well, but he is unfortunately seriously mistaken concerning "the law" relating to the status of EU Citizens residing in Spain.  I am also completely baffled by the reference to some "appeal to the European Court". As fas as I am aware, none of the issues involved here are even in contention.

The facts are surprisingly simple and very straightforward.  Official guidance on the topic is freely available to any citizen. This is available in "plain English" terms, in addition to more technical references.

One good starting point is the official EU guide to free movement of citizens:

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/policies/citizenship/docs/guide_free_movement_low.pdf

This is an easy-to-use guide written in clear and simple terms. It is current and is an accurate statement of the law on this subject.

The relevant section here is Chapter 9 on the Right of Permanent Residence.

This states that after 5 years lawful residence in the host country you are entitled to permanent residence.  

"Once acquired, this right is not subject to the conditions foreseen under Chapters 6 and 7 above. You can lose this right only through absence for a period exceeding two consecutive years"

The right is acquired automatically. It is not subject to applications or approval. Very specifically, the 'conditions' laid out in Chapters 6 and 7 of the booklet do no apply. These are only applicable to 'new' residents, not residents who have been here for 5 years or more. These 'conditions' are the income/resources and medical insurance stipulations.

To be 100% clear on this, none of these apply to permanent residence. Permanent residence is expressly unconditional.

A more comprehensive guide on this topic is also freely available directly from the EU on this:

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/citizen/files/guide_2004_38_ec_en.pdf

See Chapter 7.

So, assuming you have lived here for 5 years or more you already have permanent resident status. You can (if you wish) request a certificate of proof, but as the above guide helpfully points out, you are not legally obliged to.

You certainly cannot be required to provide evidence of income, assets or health insurance as your right is "unconditional".

In case of difficulty with (various) officials who fail to understand any of this, I would strongly recommend enlisting the direct assistance of SOLVIT:

http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/site/index_en.htm

They will intercede directly on your behalf in such cases.

I hope this helps.

[ES]

Part of quote from Roger

"For this you should obtain an up to date copy of your Padron Certificate from the Town Hall.

Failure to do so will require the Town Hall to remove you from the Town Hall Padron."

Here we go again, some outfit says "jump" and we are all expected to comply "how high".

Roger, are we expected to come to the town hall, pay 3 euro down the bank to get an up to date copy of Padron so that the town hall get their handout from the Junta.

No problem but I will be charging you 20 euro for this service and so should everybody else.  I trust that this is OK Roger?
 

[Roger]

I do not make the rules. I am only reporting what the Town Hall has been instructed to do.

As for your Residencia, do you mean your Tarjeta de Residencia, which has an expiry date, and can no longer be issued.

The Certificate is required under Spanish Law and from the information I have seen there is nothing in this regulation which is against EU rules.
Others may disagree of course.

As for the requirement to have health insurance, this is also required under Spanish Law.
If this requirement is against EU rules I await an appeal to the European Court.
In the meantime it is the law.

[claire23]

This cannot be fair or right. My recidencia ran out in December.  When I was going to renew it I was told on this forum that I had to prove that I had adequate health insurance or be in the social system.  I don't have either. So what do we do? I await your reply Roger.