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Author Topic: How would you vote if you were Greek  (Read 2524 times)
falcon
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« on: June 17, 2012, 18:34:02 PM »

Yesterday on Euronews they interviewed 2 Greeks
One was a teacher for 20 years the other was a travel agent
They bought a flat last year at a very reasonable price
Their mortgage is 700 Euros per month
At the time of the purchase he was paid €1500 per month and she earned €700 for a full time job
Since then his wages have been cut to €900 and she has not been paid for 3 months
Who is really suffering and again how would you vote in their position
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« on: June 17, 2012, 18:34:02 PM »

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suziesue
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« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2012, 18:41:17 PM »

Everytime an African country needs a bailout they focus the camera on a kid with snot running down its nose and flies round its eyes. Do you imagine all the country is in that state?

and I'll tell you something you probably don't know... marmalade is a darn good fly attractor when you need to get public sympathy. Rolling Eyes
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« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2012, 18:41:17 PM »

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falcon
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2012, 19:32:16 PM »

Bit shallow to compare a starving child in Africa with the plight of the Greeks
No all Africa is not like that but again the rich only exploit the poor
In Greece ???
Again why do people have such limited understanding of cause and effect
The slave trade did not stop because of the good will of wealthy nations
The  slave trade stopped because there were no more people in Africa
The western nations took people from the west of Africa and the Asian and middle eastern nations took them from the east coast
The slavers met in the middle and the trade effectivly stopped, there were insuffcient people to justify continuation of the trade
This why the people of Africa are so poor it takes a long time for people to recover from such devastaion
The reason the Greeks are poor is because the rich pay no taxes they just buy an island and move "of shore"
You have the same position developing in London
The rich are looking for a safe haven for property purchase but in the UK you do not need an island to avoid taxes just a company
Purchase property for £23 million in a company no need to pay stamp duty or rates or capital gains tax
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2012, 19:32:16 PM »

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ramblarider
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« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2012, 18:20:20 PM »


The  slave trade stopped because there were no more people in Africa

Uh?

 :crazy:

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« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2012, 18:20:20 PM »

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gus-lopez
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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2012, 18:28:35 PM »

On friday night they interviewed some of the half million Greeks that live,work ,retired in Australia. Not one had a good word to say about the countries plight. As far as they were concerned they made there bed , etc.
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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2012, 18:28:35 PM »

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Tetley
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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2012, 19:14:22 PM »


The  slave trade stopped because there were no more people in Africa

Uh?

 :crazy:



A Hull lad stopped the slave trade Mr Wilberforce  Cool unfortanatly the banking sector and governments got there heads together a bit later on and desinged a new  system were we are all slaves to the machine from the cradle to the grave,in any country.  :-X
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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2012, 19:14:22 PM »

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falcon
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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2012, 20:23:01 PM »

uh! facts are facts

The demographic effects of the slave trade are some of the most controversial and debated issues. Tens of millions of people were removed from Africa via the slave trade, and what effect this had on Africa is an important question. Walter Rodney argued that the export of so many people had been a demographic disaster and had left Africa permanently disadvantaged when compared to other parts of the world, and largely explains that continent's continued poverty.[83] He presents numbers that show that Africa's population stagnated during this period, while that of Europe and Asia grew dramatically. According to Rodney all other areas of the economy were disrupted by the slave trade as the top merchants abandoned traditional industries to pursue slaving and the lower levels of the population were disrupted by the slaving itself.
Elikia M’bokolo, April 1998, Le Monde diplomatique. Quote:"The African continent was bled of its human resources via all possible routes. Across the Sahara, through the Red Sea, from the Indian Ocean ports and across the Atlantic. " He continues: "Four million slaves exported via the Red Sea, another four million through the Swahili ports of the Indian Ocean, perhaps as many as nine million along the trans-Saharan caravan route, and eleven to twenty million (depending on the author) across the Atlantic Ocean"[
Plus the indigenous slavery which is estimated at between 30 to 40 percent of the population
Demographic studies estimate the prior to the slave trade the population of all Africa outside the Mediterranean region was in the region of 30 to 40 Million
By the 1950s over 100 years after the end of the slave trade the population for the whole of Africa including the Mediterranean countries had only recovered to 221 million
These were vastly under populated areas of the world that we as Europeans cannot hope to understand or comprehend
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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2012, 20:23:01 PM »

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Albondigas
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« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2012, 20:26:49 PM »


The  slave trade stopped because there were no more people in Africa

Uh?

 :crazy:



I was thinking the same thing, Ramblarider :wave
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« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2012, 20:26:49 PM »

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ramblarider
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« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2012, 21:20:48 PM »

uh! facts are facts


Yes, indeed they are. Which is why making bizarre and ludicrous claims that "the slave trade stopped because there were no more people in Africa" is so demonstrably untrue, and is such a flagrant distortion of historical fact, that it does a serious disservice to the real issues, and real people, involved in fighting against the practice.

There is no question that it had extremely negative effects. It clearly did. There is extensive credible research on this. However, that is very, very far from your claim that there "were no more people if Africa".

See, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_Trade_Act_1807

Then consider that the population of Africa in 1850 was somewhere in the region of 30-35 million people. Your claim is simply entirely false and totally misleading.

PS: If you are going to lift entire passages from Wikipedia without attribution, and pass them off as your own words, that is really unacceptable. At least give credit where it is due. Adding your own distortions to it just goes from bad to worse.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 21:24:36 PM by ramblarider » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2012, 21:20:48 PM »

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hyacintho
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« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2012, 21:25:56 PM »

With my feet and get as far away as possible!
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« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2012, 21:25:56 PM »

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falcon
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« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2012, 23:50:21 PM »

My statistics are taken form reliable sources but I have no intention of providing attribution. This is a forum where people can say what the want and what they believe not some academic site The quotations taken from Wikipedia due give credit to the source in the extracts but can be picked up from other locations
If you feel the need to verify the figs do your own research lots of time to pass  in the sun
You will note that this topic heading is “how would you vote if you were Greek” and has changed direction because of the crass comments of suzisue
Anyway here goes
From the 1300 hundreds through to the end of slavery which is thought to be  accepted as the mid 1800 hundreds the world population is estimated as ranging from 400 million in the 1300 to 1100 in million 1850
There are very few statistics for Africa, but using the statistics for the rest of the world it is realistic to accept the figures given as estimates for Africa as reasonably accurate.
If we take 1850 as our base the world population was 1100 million
Of which Europe and Asia make up 1050 million doesn’t leave much for the rest of the world
As is accepted there is very little data for Africa but if you compare these figures with what is known about the African population including the Mediterranean areas
The population of Africa in 1980 is estimated at 470 million the world population is estimated at 4800 million
That means that in the 1850s the population for all of Africa should have been about 110 million but that figure includes the Mediterranean countries. So it is not unreasonable to say that the population in the rest of Africa was in the region 40 to 50 Million
Also we know that the population was decimated by slavery so finding people in a country the size of Africa to take into slavery  becomes very hard
Africa is 44,391,162 square kilometres, try and find somebody to take into slavery when there are so few people
Finally the quote about the reason the slave trade died out is taken from an organisation in Bristol which is dedicated to educating people about the slave trade







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« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2012, 23:50:21 PM »

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ramblarider
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« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2012, 05:58:18 AM »

Finally the quote about the reason the slave trade died out is taken from an organisation in Bristol which is dedicated to educating people about the slave trade

It is an self-evidently false and frankly foolish claim from people more interested in pursuing a revisionist political agenda than in presenting any kind of unbiased historical fact.

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falcon
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« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2012, 11:42:48 AM »

As you say at the time I did not believe the arguement and so did some research which seemed to support the arguement
These people were genuine and did not seek to supress anything
However from memory of the search at the time which was before the internet, there are several supporting arguements which led me to believe what was said was probably correct and accurate reflection of the true position
As an example one thing I found out, again taken from memory, was the example of ships in and out of the port of Bristol
At the height of the slave trade 45% of the ships leaving the port were slavers by the time the abolitionist had started in the UK this percantage had dropped to 2%.
Reports from ships captains of the time state that it was becomeing harder and more expensive to aquire slaves 
Both these factors indicate there was a problem with supply and demand so the trade was no longer economic
Regarding population densities if you look at reacent history with Iraq  the population was only about 8 people per kilometre fortunatly the populations are concentrated in cites
That is not the case in Afganiston and is probable the reason why no counrty has ever been able to subducate the population
In Afria until relativly recent times the population has been disperesed into small to medium size tribes which made it impossible to even estimate the population but one thing is for certain it takes a very large area to support a small population when you are primarily a hunter gatherer people
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