Place in the sun tonight in Almeria

[raysun]

Comment noted. Adios.

[byrney]

If you don't want to join in the debate Raysun and Nibbler, then just don't bother reading it any more.  Quite simple really.

I actually thought that we were having quite an adult debate about a topic which is/should be dear to all our hearts - the status of all our properties.  Maybe I'm wrong though and will continue to bury my head in the sand.

[raysun]

It got boring a long way back nibbler.!!

[nibbler]

Getting bored now.

[Lynden]

Well Byrney I hope people do take the time to check your posts and expose your inaccuracies. But I suspect they have better things to do.

The area is fine but people should be MUCH more cautious when buying property in Spain than in the UK, it doesn't take a genius to work that one out.

[byrney]

"I have quoted you, because you clearly have paraphrased and misquoted my posts to suit your agenda.
Please at least have the courtesy to quote my post instead of butchering the content to try to alter and exaggerate"

Lynden, I have certainly not paraphrased or misquoted your posts.  They were direct extracts from your posts as anyone wishing to go back to your posts will see.

I see no point in continuing any further dialogue with you as you clearly wish to see things in a negative light whereas I, fortunately, take a more positive view of life.

The only thing I agree with you is that anyone contemplating buying in the area should be just as cautious as they would be when buying in the UK and should trust the "professionals" at their service in the same manner.  There are crooks everywhere - there are also far more decent people.

Please discontinue doing down our area.

[Lynden]

"They may have paperwork but as the Zurgena Urban plan is out of date and they either cannot or will not get a plan past the Andalusian government I'd have to say they are not. Also a number of those properties are on plots that have not been subdivided correctly.
I'd be extra wary around Zurgena. We all know what happens when the town gives permission and the government do not."

As the entire post was about the Place in the Sun property in La Alfoquia (Zurgena) - being sold by Voss Homes - I guess this quote is pretty conclusive as to what you said.

Does this not make the entire area blighted by your comments?  I would suggest the answer is yes.

I have quoted you, because you clearly have paraphrased and misquoted my posts to suit your agenda.
Please at least have the courtesy to quote my post instead of butchering the content to try to alter and exaggerate.

You may not like my post but it doesn't make it untrue or inaccurate.

When I first looked at moving to the Almanzora Valley I actually wanted to move to the area around La Alfoquia and Cucador. I looked at a number of properties there. I also looked at Limaria and most of the villages and suburbs between Cantoria and Zurgena itself.
I encountered many issues with incomplete paperwork, missing first occupation licences....you name it I probably encountered it. Due to excellent advice I avoided all of these issues and all I am doing is imploring anyone to do the same. Anyone buying in Spain should have a healthy scepticism about what they are told by someone selling them a property. Check everything for yourself and if you have any doubts at all then walk away. There are plenty of excellent properties that are fully legal.
I recall and report on what I found to try to assist. If you think I'm being harsh on your area then that's your problem as I tell it how it is. Zurgena area is delightful, I know lots of people who live there, and they can tell you many truths about their experiences you may not like....but all accurate.
There are wonderful properties all over the valley but in Spain you must take extra care Caveat Emptor.

Oh and if you want a quote.....here's something you wrote on another thread......and you accuse me of running down the area.

Well, at least if you are under Arboleas they do seem to do things more "by the book" than other Local Authorities (well, they did until Roger left!).

Zurgena Council do not issue building licences so any "developments" in that area are potentially illegal (allegedly).

[byrney]

"They may have paperwork but as the Zurgena Urban plan is out of date and they either cannot or will not get a plan past the Andalusian government I'd have to say they are not. Also a number of those properties are on plots that have not been subdivided correctly.
I'd be extra wary around Zurgena. We all know what happens when the town gives permission and the government do not."

As the entire post was about the Place in the Sun property in La Alfoquia (Zurgena) - being sold by Voss Homes - I guess this quote is pretty conclusive as to what you said.

Does this not make the entire area blighted by your comments?  I would suggest the answer is yes.

[Lynden]

A very helpful analysis of the current situation in Arboleas Roger.  Thank you.

However, this does nothing to negate, or support, the comments made by Lynden about the legailty of a specific house in Zurgena, or indeed the status of all houses in the Zurgena area, which s/he believ
es to be illegal.

Will you point out where I specified a particular property in any of my posts? ....you won't find it.......my comments are general BUT are about Zurgena and Arboleas.
I'm not running down an area just warning of the pit falls....like I also stated...I'm sure there are far worse.

[byrney]

A very helpful analysis of the current situation in Arboleas Roger.  Thank you.

However, this does nothing to negate, or support, the comments made by Lynden about the legailty of a specific house in Zurgena, or indeed the status of all houses in the Zurgena area, which s/he believ
es to be illegal.

[Roger]

I do not know what houses are being referred to so cannot comment on any specific case.
However I do have 30 years experience of living in Spain, 20 years in this area.
Therefore I will make some comments which may help prospective buyers, in principle, without getting involved about any individual issues..

The fact that you have seen an urban plan in a Town Hall means nothing.

10 years ago Arboleas Council produced a whole raft of Urban plans, signed off by a qualified architect and approved by the Council.
Residents were called to public meeting to see the plans.
Great.
I was quoted correctly in the local press for describing the plans as a fudge.
The then Mayor publicly criticised me and stated at a subsequent public meeting that they had been approved.
They were all rejected by the Urban Planning Department in Almeria.
When we took control of the Town Hall in June 2011 we had nothing.

15 years ago I went to Cantoria Council and was shown a very detailed urban plan which I was assured by the official (not the politicians) that it was in the process of being approved.
It never was.

Houses were built in Albox with an assurance from the then Mayor that they were legal.
They were not.

In 2007 seven houses in Arboleas were granted all their documents from the Town Hall and therefore obtained escrituras.
They were illegal.

When I lived in Valencia a German visitor got agreement from the Mayor to build a house on a plot of land he was planning to purchase.
Therefore he went ahead with the purchase.
Then his building application was rejected.
I went back a few months ago and the land is still not built on, 25 years later.

THEREFORE
The rule is, land is only urban (or technically urbanisable) only when it is approved as such by the Urban Comision of the Urban Planning Department, which is a department of the Regional Government (the Junta de Andalucia).
And this approval is only legal when it has been registered in the public register, the official Boletin of Andalucia (BoA).

[byrney]

I am not being deliberately obtuse.

I dislike posters who run down my area when they have no real knowledge of the facts.

You clearly posted that the property on Place in the Sun was illegal and then in the next post you said that people should rely on Voss Homes who only deal in legal properties - according to you.  Yet, the "illegal" property (again, according to you) was indeed being sold by Voss Homes.

"I haven't pointed out any particular property but IMHO Zurgena has far more issues to resolve as a district than Arboleas" - indeed you have exactly pointed out a particular property - the one sold on Place in the Sun - which you arbitrarily declared to be illegal.

On what basis do you make the statement that Zurgena has more issues to resolve than Arboleas?  Perhaps because Zurgena are content to go about their business in a quiet manner rather than shout their "achievements" (ahem) from the roof tops?......

[Lynden]

Lynden, Roger has no involvement with Zurgena Council, so how would he know about the legality, or otherwise, of properties in Zurgena?

You seemed to be talking with some knowledge when you alleged that the Place in the Sun property was illegal.  Yet, by the same token, you recommended using Voss Homes as a "safe" Agent to deal with as they supposedly only deal in legal properties.

But, as I said, the property you claim to be illegal (and by the sense of your post all properties in Zurgena are similarly illegal) was being sold by Voss Homes.

People really should get their facts straight before potentially blighting thousands of properties by careless/inaccurate postings.

For my part, I have actually seen the plan for Zurgena which has been approved by the Junta, and which is available for all to see at the Town Hall.  This shows the various zonings required (ie Urban/Rural etc) and, on that basis, it is my belief that the property in question is in fact legal - although I am no Lawyer, and would tend to take guidance from the likes of the Town Hall, Amanda Oakley and Andrew Voss, rather than a random poster on the Forum.

Byrney I don't know if you being deliberately obtuse.....but your last paragraph is exactly what I put on my post....and TBH I suggested Roger as he has dealt with planning issues and property legality in the next district to Zurgena. Hardly the next planet is it.
I haven't pointed out any particular property but IMHO Zurgena has far more issues to resolve as a district than Arboleas. It doesn't mean you can't find a legal property, just that extra care should be taken. I'm sure there are far worse places too.
I have also seen what is proposed for the district and there are going to be some major infrastructure and zoning issues to resolve before the Junta will sign it off.

[byrney]

Lynden, Roger has no involvement with Zurgena Council, so how would he know about the legality, or otherwise, of properties in Zurgena?

You seemed to be talking with some knowledge when you alleged that the Place in the Sun property was illegal.  Yet, by the same token, you recommended using Voss Homes as a "safe" Agent to deal with as they supposedly only deal in legal properties.

But, as I said, the property you claim to be illegal (and by the sense of your post all properties in Zurgena are similarly illegal) was being sold by Voss Homes.

People really should get their facts straight before potentially blighting thousands of properties by careless/inaccurate postings.

For my part, I have actually seen the plan for Zurgena which has been approved by the Junta, and which is available for all to see at the Town Hall.  This shows the various zonings required (ie Urban/Rural etc) and, on that basis, it is my belief that the property in question is in fact legal - although I am no Lawyer, and would tend to take guidance from the likes of the Town Hall, Amanda Oakley and Andrew Voss, rather than a random poster on the Forum.

[Lynden]

Perhaps Roger can clarify as he has been involved for many years.
It's not my intention to put people off and neither is this bar room gossip; I've bought and sold in Arboleas. I researched very carefully around the area including Zurgena district. No Town Hall is perfect but some are better than others. There are lots of property that have all their paperwork which is clearly a good place to start. But don't think that that is all you need. I chose Arboleas district because of what they have done and are doing to resolve past issues (hardly an appropriate term I know). They at least have an approved Urban Plan, that gives you confidence that land is classified correctly and that the Junta will not intervene when you thought you were legal. It doesn't mean every property there is fully legal, but those that are not have a pathway (albeit difficult in some cases) to full legality.
Anyone who uses Amanda or someone like her should be safe enough, but go to the Town Hall it's amazing how helpful they can be.
I have also dealt with Simon Cole and Andy Voss and found them both to be honest and credible.

[byrney]

All I know is that legal, or not, the housing market (certainly around La Alfoquia) has taken off in the last twelve months and comments (supported by fact or not) made by the likes of Lynden are certainly not helping those who are desperate to sell.  Presumably Lynden has an inside track as to what is legal/not?  Or, is it just bar room gossip?

[JessicaH]

Regardless,  a play on words doesn't alter the situation.
If having all the paperwork but lacking the agreement of the town plan by junta de A means the properties, although not classified " illegal"  have yet to be legalised is IMO still  immoral for anyone to advertise, let alone earn money from the for sale thereof.
Recalling how those unfortunate folk in Vera are, 8 years later, still with resolution how some folks can sleep at night amazes me......

[Lynden]

Almost Byrney.....what I said was they may have all the paperwork but as Zurgena's town plan has not been approved, they will not be legal in so far as the Andalusian Government is concerned. Can cause issues....look at Vera.

[byrney]

"Stick to recommended conveyancers like Amanda Oakley and Estate Agents that will NOT take on a property without all the paperwork, like Coles or Voss."

That's good advice Lynden, but it was only yesterday that you were alleging that the property shown in Place in the Sun was illegal - as I recall the property was for sale via Voss Homes - forgive me if I am wrong......

[Lynden]

jessica H , they did go down that route to try to get their deposit back, however after hitting numerous brick walls and costs they drew
a line under it as a bad move and blamed themselves for applying to get on a TV programme in the first place , one of them was once on
bullseye as well and that didnt go well either , at least they havnt been on crimewatch

Not yet anyway:57:
You really do rely on your advisors when buying a property, more so in another country. Stick to recommended conveyancers like Amanda Oakley and Estate Agents that will NOT take on a property without all the paperwork, like Coles or Voss.

[ajc]

jessica H , they did go down that route to try to get their deposit back, however after hitting numerous brick walls and costs they drew
a line under it as a bad move and blamed themselves for applying to get on a TV programme in the first place , one of them was once on
bullseye as well and that didnt go well either , at least they havnt been on crimewatch

[raysun]

We were lucky enough to have an abigado in vera who is really top class and has never put a foot wrong  in the last many years..
A good honest one is worth his or her weight in gold.

[byrney]

"Anyone contemplating buying in Spain,MUST get themselves a really honest solicitor" - hmmmmm???????

I have personal experience of "honest solicitors" in the UK, let alone in Spain............

At the end of the day it is down to the individual to make all the possible checks s/he can and use the appropriate agencies and professional organisations available to them, and then THEY make a choice.  It's so easy to blame everyone else when you make bad choices.

As long as you can wake up in a morning and say that you have done everything you can do to minimise the risk then that is all good.

[Jimel]

Anyone contemplating buying in Spain,MUST get themselves a really honest solicitor,who will do thorough searches.

[JessicaH]

ajc, when the media are acting as property agents would it be wrong to assume that, they of all people, would check the legality of a property. However all that interests the presenters is that the tv programme is popular.
In your friends case I would regard this as a double con...and sue.

[ajc]

I was never at anytime talking down estate agents , I just thought it might be a nice touch to have a bit more of a Spanish involvement in the programme otherwise it does seem a bit us and them which lots moan about , and if I was to moan about estate agents some not all don't actually have a good track record as I have a freind who bought a house after being on the TV programme and after putting down a hefty deposit the House was found to be illegal , not the TV companies fault but that is always in the back of your mind

[Lynden]

I totally agree Glenmavis people are so negative about living and buying in Spain and yes they are fully legal property's

They may have paperwork but as the Zurgena Urban plan is out of date and they either cannot or will not get a plan past the Andalusian government I'd have to say they are not. Also a number of those properties are on plots that have not been subdivided correctly.
I'd be extra wary around Zurgena. We all know what happens when the town gives permission and the government do not.

[Angleseyite]

I totally agree Glenmavis people are so negative about living and buying in Spain and yes they are fully legal property's

Its being so negative and dour that keep some people going  :57: :57:

[kellyscasa34]

I totally agree Glenmavis people are so negative about living and buying in Spain and yes they are fully legal property's

[Trucker]

How often do Spanish folk move, selling their house and buying another, and if selling its the Brits and English speaking Europeans that are most prolific..so there are going to be more English estate agents..surely that obvious..

[ajc]

I wasn't referring to just this episode , and it isn't a Criticism it's just the fact I think the TV company give the impression that the Spanish language won't be an issue if you move here as everyone is a Steve or Debbie and everyone speaks English .

[Glenmavis]

the TV company always find a person in an estate agent to phone called , Dave or Steve or Sandra never Jose or Juan or Maria are their no Spanish estate agents ?

what is wrong with you people it was Voss homes that were the Estate agents  and yes Andy Voss is  English  this forum is is supposed to help people settle here god help them if this is the response

[JessicaH]

Apparently....other week the estate agent was a Juan Carlos... except he was an Englishman....had to laugh.  :57:
They must think we viewers are idiots.

[ajc]

the TV company always find a person in an estate agent to phone called , Dave or Steve or Sandra never Jose or Juan or Maria are their no Spanish estate agents ?

[Rod]

It seems they bought on the estate in Alfoquia. Are these houses fully legal?