CAUTION!!!!!!!!!!!! Alicante Airport.

Started by cliff, February 21, 2018, 12:30:10 PM

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Rod

This has been going on for many years at Alicante airport. I lived in the Torrevieja area in 2001 and it was an ongoing problem. If I took anyone to Alicante airport and they wanted to pay my fuel costs I insisted they paid me before I left, silly to be taking money in front of the Guardia.


sparkiemike

The whole point of this post is your friendly pool man, gardener, odd job man who makes a couple of euros taxing people to the airport & back shouldn't do it

There're not insured, their car hasn't been scrutinised & they shouldn't be doing it

Modern technology has video of the regular's & there're going to get nicked

We all know this so if it's genuine case of family or genuine friend there're not going to be on the video hit list

By all means slip them a few euros but be discreet

Simple as that

Mike
Rules are made for the obeyance of fools & the guidance of wise men


byrney

It was said with a certain amount of tongue in cheek !!  It is possible to appeal, but the time and money you'd have to spend to make the appeal probably doesn't make it worth the while.  Best to avoid a ticket in the first place.

raysun

Appeal the ticket. ??  In spain ?? Yeah right.
Good luck with that then.


byrney

I also assume that if someone has been wrongly given a fine, then they are quite entitled to appeal the ticket - albeit, I also assume, being a tortuous procedure.


guest4538

Quote from: Optomist on February 25, 2018, 10:03:31 AM
...
The Guardia cant distinguish between someone doing a favor for someone and those doing it for a living so they seize on anyone that is seen to hand over money which is a foolish thing for anyone to do with the current situation when it would be so simple to pay before reaching the Airport . The other thing the Guardia have to weed out the illegal Taxis is seeing the same vehicle regularly dropping off or collecting passengers .
The agent we used 18 years ago used to pick up and drop off clients almost daily but at that time there was never a problem , i cant see them doing that now as things stand now they would be prime suspects , they might even be classed as giving lifts for profit as they give lifts in order to sell properties and therefore make money from the passengers .

Presumably they're covered by 'hire and reward' insurance: so they wouldn't have any problems with the Civil Guard.

Dylanthomas2014

Surely the first point of call for people wanting to charge for airport trips etc would be the N332 site and get a reply in writing which can be printed  and carried in the event of a genuine trip to assist  family and friends etc but I fear a lot of these genuine friend are like the numerous   Gardeners.   Builders   Etc who working outside the system with no future redress walk away in the event of a problem a lot of people here have suffered at their hands


guest4538

Quote from: Dylanthomas2014 on February 25, 2018, 09:29:44 AM
Once again information for us in Spain from a uk expert in a uk publication surely advice from a Spanish source would be more relevant to this thread

Surely you realize that the entire debate on this thread so far has demonstrated that the Spanish legal and administrative system is so covert that no one on the Forum has been able to find a Spanish source of the relevant laws on the subject! I agree that the Express article is misleading and offers nothing useful, but are you able to identify a Spanish information source?

The nearest we've got is Iberlynx's contribution which points out that BlaBlaCar advertise on Spanish TV. Assuming they would not be operating illegally, it seems to be perfectly OK to accept contributions towards motoring costs in Spain: and that's where the UK information helps in understanding the position in Spain, since the Association of British Insurers have made it very clear that they support BlaBlaCar and all member insurance companies in the UK agreed that insurance cover will not be affected if passengers contribute towards journey costs.

So all this points towards the law in Spain being the same as in the UK, but no one has found positive confirmation!


Dylanthomas2014

Quote from: Optomist on February 25, 2018, 10:03:31 AM
Without actually having any knowledge if the rules i would imagine that its the same here ,      -------------------------------                                    In view of this opening paragraph my opinion remains that if instead of regular advice from a uk perspective if local sources were used we would all be able to gain a knowledge of the Spanish rules some of us live under



Optomist

#36
Without actually having any knowledge if the rules i would imagine that its the same here , everyone gives lifts to friends and neighbors even if its only into town to do a bit of shopping or if their vehicle is off the road , i really cant see that would be breaking any laws here .

Many of us take friends to the airports when their going there themselves and some will ask for a contribution towards fuel costs which again i would not think is a problem however its been a well known fact that airport runs for profit has been going on here for years , and its those people that are being targeted .

The Guardia cant distinguish between someone doing a favor for someone and those doing it for a living so they seize on anyone that is seen to hand over money which is a foolish thing for anyone to do with the current situation when it would be so simple to pay before reaching the Airport . The other thing the Guardia have to weed out the illegal Taxis is seeing the same vehicle regularly dropping off or collecting passengers .

The agent we used 18 years ago used to pick up and drop off clients almost daily but at that time there was never a problem , i cant see them doing that now as things stand now they would be prime suspects , they might even be classed as giving lifts for profit as they give lifts in order to sell properties and therefore make money from the passengers .

If you see someone without a smile give them one of yours .


Dylanthomas2014

Once again information for us in Spain from a uk expert in a uk publication surely advice from a Spanish source would be more relevant to this thread


byrney

Can I be your friend raysun?.......  I will be very quiet in the passenger seat.....

raysun

Money or no money i would never dream of taking money from family or friends to take them to the airport.
Friends and family are far more important than a few gallons of diesel.

byrney

"Agree and never dream of charging family and friends so would expect guarda to query payments"

I don't think it's a case of charging, but simply a recognition that it actually costs money to take family/friends to the airport.

Of course, if you have loads of money a few quid on petrol to the airport is irrelevant....

casablanca

Quote from: Optomist on February 22, 2018, 16:38:33 PM
Quote from: Roger on February 22, 2018, 15:46:54 PM
When I have taken family to the airport I do what most people would do.
Park in the car park.
Help them with their luggage to the check in.
Make sure they are OK and the flight has not been cancelled.
Have a coffee with them to wish them a good journey.


Yea , were the same , whatever it takes to be sure some of them really have gone .

Think we can all relate to that  :grin:

Dylanthomas2014

Agree and never dream of charging family and friends so would expect guarda to query payments

Optomist

Quote from: Roger on February 22, 2018, 15:46:54 PM
When I have taken family to the airport I do what most people would do.
Park in the car park.
Help them with their luggage to the check in.
Make sure they are OK and the flight has not been cancelled.
Have a coffee with them to wish them a good journey.


Yea , were the same , whatever it takes to be sure some of them really have gone .
If you see someone without a smile give them one of yours .

Roger

When I have taken family to the airport I do what most people would do.
Park in the car park.
Help them with their luggage to the check in.
Make sure they are OK and the flight has not been cancelled.
Have a coffee with them to wish them a good journey.

byrney

This post is trying to marry two different sets of circumstances.

I don't think (?) anyone is trying to say that it is no longer permissible to take friends and family to and from the airport and receive due renumeration for their petrol/toll costs.

What it is really about is those people who hover in our local bars offering to take people at a cheaper rate than local transport.  These people will charge what they believe to be the cost per kilometre plus a "sweetener" for their time.  Surely, these are the people who the Guardia are targeting?

The advice must be when taking friends and family to ask them for their contribution well away from the airport!

ray

Surely the Alicante example is not car sharing or the passenger contributing to the drivers cost of the journey.  If a driver had to go to the airport and shared that cost with passenger no issue, but a lot do run unlicensed businesses and unfortunately some innocent drivers may get caught out.

guest4538

Quote from: Lynden on February 22, 2018, 12:34:42 PM
Perhaps some who do this as 'a living' haven't factored in all the costs of running their vehicle. If they are charging less than the cost then no profit is made. But you are right regarding the use for non profit.
But I agree with some of the others...I'd certainly want to know that if the worst hapoened the driver would be insured and have the right documentation.

Fortunately we all have freedom of choice. Accept a lift from a friend or hire a taxi: your choice. It's a matter of trust: eg it might be deemed rude asking to see all your friend's documentation before accepting a lift!

guest4538

Quote from: Lynden on February 22, 2018, 11:27:05 AM
By that description Chisme an average costing diesel car £18k including all running costs as laid down by the AA would work out at 50p per mile or about 31p per kilometre on a car that does 10000 miles pa. A trip to Almeria airport would be £31 each way. Double that for Alicante.......try persuading the Guardia though.

I suggest 45p/mile might be the highest you could get away with in the UK. This is HMRC's approved business mileage rate for using your own car: anything more is assumed to be a profit and you get taxed accordingly.

See - https://www.gov.uk/expenses-and-benefits-business-travel-mileage/rules-for-tax

Lynden

Perhaps some who do this as 'a living' haven't factored in all the costs of running their vehicle. If they are charging less than the cost then no profit is made. But you are right regarding the use for non profit.
But I agree with some of the others...I'd certainly want to know that if the worst hapoened the driver would be insured and have the right documentation.

guest4538

Quote from: Lynden on February 22, 2018, 11:27:05 AM
By that description Chisme an average costing diesel car £18k including all running costs as laid down by the AA would work out at 50p per mile or about 31p per kilometre on a car that does 10000 miles pa. A trip to Almeria airport would be £31 each way. Double that for Alicante.......try persuading the Guardia though.

Folk can calculate and defend their own expenses: personally I wouldn't ask a friend anything like as much as you're suggesting for giving a lift to the airport. Fuel charges alone seem quite sufficient as a marginal cost!

I wouldn't dream of trying to explain the situation to the Guardia! As I said earlier, the freedom to give lifts to folk and to charge reasonable expenses applies in the UK, and I presumed the same applies in other normal democratic countries. I don't think Spain, and its Civil Guard, quite falls into this category!

However, as pointed out by Iberlynx, BlaBlaCar advertises in Spain: that suggests that you can claim expenses in Spain. But no one on the Forum has so far been able  to give details of the Spanish law on the subject.

Lynden

By that description Chisme an average costing diesel car £18k including all running costs as laid down by the AA would work out at 50p per mile or about 31p per kilometre on a car that does 10000 miles pa. A trip to Almeria airport would be £31 each way. Double that for Alicante.......try persuading the Guardia though.

guest4538

Quote from: raysun on February 22, 2018, 10:29:11 AM
Sorry chisme, you are wrong!! Never saw the wording on your policy elsewhere.
All SDP and class one policies always exclude use for hire and reward!!
Reward may be a grey area but if your passenger pays you for fuel or whatever and if you have an accident and they claim against you  for their injuries and state that they paid you for whatever  then you are in big bother with your insurer.
Hopefully you never find out.

Sorry Raysun, but how can you say I'm wrong when I agree with you? But we're not talking about making a profit - a business - hire and reward!

We're talking about the driver's right to be paid reasonable expenses, the cost of fuel etc. And this is what the Association of British Insurers has to say on the subject:

"Car sharing and insurance
The ABI is supportive of car sharing platforms such as BlaBlaCar, Liftshare, GoCarShare. ABI motor insurers have agreed that your insurance cover will not be affected if your passengers contribute towards your journey costs (including fuel, vehicle depreciation and associated vehicle running costs), as long as lifts are given in a vehicle seating eight passengers or less. This does not apply if you make a profit from payments received or if carrying passengers is your business."

raysun

#18
Sorry chisme, you are wrong!! Never saw the wording on your policy elsewhere.
All SDP and class one policies always exclude use for hire and reward!!
Reward may be a grey area but if your passenger pays you for fuel or whatever and if you have an accident and they claim against you  for their injuries and state that they paid you for whatever  then you are in big bother with your insurer.

Hopefully you never find out.

guest4538

Quote from: Iberlynx on February 22, 2018, 06:13:54 AM
So what is the difference by using the website Bla Bla Car that is advertised on Spanish TV?

Interesting. The UK site for BlaBlaCar states:

"Your existing car insurance covers carpooling
When you travel with BlaBlaCar as a driver, passengers contribute towards your running costs. No profits are made which is why BlaBlaCar drivers' insurance policies are not affected. You can find more information on the Association of British Insurers' website."

This confirms the UK position that it's perfectly legal to be paid expenses for giving folk a lift in your car in the UK. So all the claims on the Forum, stating that it is illegal in the UK to accept money, are simply wrong!

The fact that this is advertised in Spain raises the question, is it also perfectly legal in Spain to receive expenses for giving lifts? So what really is the law in Spain?

Eddie

Having been operating a transport company for 20 years I have no sympathy for anyone who gets money transporting people / goods to and from anywhere unless they are properly documented and registered. Freeloaders who do not pay the proper taxes or insurance etc where a pain in the ass for all of that 20 years.
I am glad that other people have also read the insurance document properly. ANY payment renders the policy null and void.

Iberlynx

So what is the difference by using the website Bla Bla Car that is advertised on Spanish TV?

guest4538

Quote from: PandJ on February 21, 2018, 21:07:42 PM
Unfortunately it is illegal  in the U.K. To use a private vehicle as a "tax service" as itis clearly stated in your order insurance  policy it is not covered .
You can take family without payment but not any other persons, check your policy

Perhaps I'm fortunate, but my UK insurance policy says:

"Voluntary use
Social, domestic and pleasure use includes use of your car for voluntary purposes. No
payment or income should be received other than reasonable expenses to cover running
costs such as fuel."

I would have thought most UK policies are the same, since there's nothing illegal in doing favours for friends and claiming actual expenses! If you make a profit then that is a different matter: you are then running a business and should be insured accordingly.

I'm very surprised that your policy restricts who's allowed to be a passenger in your car: that sounds a bit like 'big brother' and is possibly an infringement of your human rights! I can recommend LV...

tintin

this is the same at San Javier airport, but have never seen any police undercover always in uniform, but they do have cameras on the entrance to the airport, the taxi drivers have made many complaints about cowboy taxi's has anyone any info about Almeria airport
Mike

Dave and Sue

Hi All   I was at Alicante this morning and witnessed exactly the same I overheard part of the conversation and apparently the driver had been recorded dropping off 4 passengers this week using the same vehicle the police arrested him and called for a grua to impound the vehicle!!   Sorry to say but he was a Brit!!
Still living the dream after 20 years

raysun

Correct pandj, proposal form asks if in addition to social domestic and pleasure which includes to and from your place of work if you use car for other uses.
If you have an accident and they discover however unlikely that you acepted payment to take  a passenger from A to B  then the insurer could refuse your claim for damage to your vehicle.
Of course if they dont know then not a problem but if the passenger sues you as a result of an accident it could get very messy.