MUNICIPAL NAVE IN EL RULADOR

[Roger]

For the benefit of Fay and anyone else who have UK qualifications and wish them to be applicable for use in Spain, for a nurse the link is as follows
www.nmc.org.uk/registration/working-outside-the-uk/working-in-the-eu

This gives the information of how you transfer your nursing qualification for use in Spain.
It is not valid until you go through this procedure.

It is exactly the same in reverse for a Spanish nurse who wants to work in the UK

Other qualifications will have a similar procedure, through the relevant professional register in the UK.

You cannot simply use your UK qualifications outside the UK without going through your professional body to register them in another EU country.
Of course all this could change post Brexit.

The Town Hall has a legal obligation to ensure that anyone working in a municipal building is doing so legally, otherwise the Council will be legally at fault.
That is why we have carried out the action we have.

[Roger]

fay
As I have explained to your husband, we have no problem with you applying to the Town Hall for permission to use space in the nave to carry out activities which you explain.
The problem is that Sophias have no right to sub let such space. But you can rent it from the Town Hall.
The problem is that the Town Hall has never been approacehed for thsi permission.

Regarding your nursing qulaification from the UK, this will allow you to continue to run a well persons clinic
but you have to register this qualification in Spain.
There is a standard procedure to do this through the Nursing Council of the UK.

All the Town Hall wants to do is to ensure that all activities are registered with the Town Hall and approved, and also to ensure that any rent paidfor using space in the nave is paid to the Town Hall because it is a Town Hall building.

We have a legal obligation to ensure that everything that takes place in that building is with our knowledge and authorised by us.

[Fay]

When I first came to Spain, I had a clinic in Albox, only after my husband and I visited the local police, town hall and health centre ( who hold my business cards) was I told that I may practice my therapies. At Arboleas town hall I would have loved to have had a chance to be at the meetings and state my case. I'm passionate about my work and in Acupuncture I have a much higher rate of success than the normal 20 % of first time treatment success.

[restoration man]

I agree with Moray,  the community centre should be available to all and not the selective few who want to use the services of a privately run business. Having said that my husband started play badminton  at the centre, albeit on an inadequate court, but did not continue for lack of interest and number attendance. I'm sure though there  is a building locally which could be rented out to Sophia to run a gymnasiam/health/fitness centre business, as clearly such a service is of benefit to some.

[Moyra]

Hi
Maybe I think too simplistically but as you have €150k why not build a "shop" building and ask Sophia's to move into it, charging the normal "shop" rental, you can then take back the community centre.

It would no longer be the responsibility of th TH to monitor Sophia's as it would be down to the owner/s and Arboleas would have the Nave back for the use of all.

This is just my humble opinion.

Moyra

[mimosas]

Town Hall business should stay in the Town Hall

[nibbler]

I'm sure no one questions your qualifications in the UK but have these been authorised in Spain. That's one of the questions being asked..
Nibbler.

[Fay]

Sorry don t know why it's upside down!

[Fay]

Hi everyone my name is Fay a therapist from Sophia's I have enclosed my certificate for my RGN ,
( Registered General Nurse)
I have 21 Diploma's all with distinction in the therapies I provide. I am unable to post them all as Additional Options won't let me put that amount of files on. To say I'm not Medically qualified is incorrect.
I would like to thank my clients for their support.

[Rtis]

ALL this will be in the weekly newspaper AND maybe some Spanish ones !! SO, why not here ?

[Roger]

How can this be personal information when we have been told that these are qualifications posted on the wall in Sophias.
The information I have posted is from photographs taken by Paula of the certificates on the walls, and sent to the Town Hall.

The question that must be answered by Sophias is whether there are any other qualifications which were not sent to the Town Hall.

If these are the only qualifications then can someone explain to me why they are worth anything.

[Rach]

Roger, I believe that the person you are referring to was a registered nurse in the UK for many years. Why hasn't Paula presented this information to the Town Hall?!  Naturally this needs to be registered in Spain and I truly think that the lady in question has been misguided with regard to this important issue. Furthermore, the dates of the diplomas presented by Paula just don't add up.  They are dated: one in July 2015, three in August 2015 and one in October 2015.  Maybe the courses are short and achievable within such a short timescale.  I also believe that this person has other qualifications and by all accounts is a lovely lady.  I hope that she and others can seek help and guidance, get registered correctly in Spain and continue to offer their services.

[Mickey]

Felipe it is time this stopped
The line has been cossed with the disclosure of personal
Infomation about employees of Sophias
under the data protection laws this must be removed.
You as the owner have a duty

Would you be posting this if you weren't Paula's husband and joint owner of Sophia's?

[phillthepick]

Felipe it is time this stopped
The line has been cossed with the disclosure of personal
Infomation about employees of Sophias
under the data protection laws this must be removed.
You as the owner have a duty

[flintstone]

Am I the only person who is astonished that Roger is the only member of the Ayuntiamento willing to put his head above the parapet?

What has happened to Danny and Mike etc. ?   Surely they have an opinion.

I value very highly the work that has been done by the current council but:

Sophias pay 300 euros a month and provide a service that is used by a very small percentage of the population for limited hours each day.

A new community centre will cost 150,000 euros.

That is 500 months rent ...... over 50 years!

Something is very wrong here.

I am astonished that so few people are expressing their concern.

Come on councillors, we voted for you.  I expect you to honour that trust and express an opinion.

[Roger]

Sophias have been asked by another contributor to publish the qualifications of their workers.
I await this with interest.
I have published the only qualifications which Sophias has provided the Town Hallfor their Rehab specialist.

I am now publishing the only other qualifications which Sophias has sent to the Town Hall for the workers in their treatment rooms.
In my opinion none of these are valid for the services being offered.
I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong.
______________________________________________________________________

Sophias offers a well persons clinic, as shown below on their web site.
This is a very good service, but I am sure people will agree that it should be provided by a medical professional, who has to have their credentials registered in Spain.
________________________________________________________________________

Well Person Clinic
WHAT ARE WELL PERSON'S CLINICS?
Well person's clinics offer a range of health checks for men and women. A well person's clinic is not a replacement for your Doctor. If you are ill or need medical advice, see your Doctor.
What health checks do well Person's clinics offer?
Medical history
Weight
Blood pressure and pulse
BMI Check
A urine test for diabetes or kidney infection
Promotion of good mental health
Lung function (peak flow) and breath test
Checking moles
An assessment of your lifestyle, including diet, exercise, alcohol and smoking, advice and possible treatment
________________________________________________________________________

There is only one other person for whom I have been provided with qualifications by Sophias.
I believe, in the absence of any other information, that this is the person who is operating this clinic.

The qualifications are as follows:-
______________________________________________________________________

There are four diplomas from an un named OA Academy
Cognitive Behaviour Therapy, dated July 2015
Conflict Management, dated August 2015
Master Herbalist, dated August 2015
Mental Health and Social care, dated August 2015

From NLP Centre of Excellence Ltd,
Hypnotherapy and Cognitive Techniques for Stress Management in Business
October 2015

International Association of NLP and Coaching
Acupuncture
Issued January 2016
Expired September 2016
_______________________________________________________________________

Does anyone really think these are valid qualifications for giving medical advice?

There is a grey area about hat qualifications you need for acupuncture, hypnotherapy and lipo suction, if not taking place in a registered health centre.
However I believe that potential clients need to know if there are any qualifications.

[mickandjan]

Re the certificates hanging on walls. With respect, I could go onto the internet and become "Qualified" in all sorts of professions.in 5 minutes

How true!

[nibbler]

What people don't seem to understand is that UK qualifications don't necessarily conform to the Spanish system. There is a process that various professionals need to go through before they are licensed in Spain.
Vets , dentists and nurses are but a few.
If has been said all those carrying out practices at Sophia's are legally entitled to, then I'm sure that if they present their credentials and insurance to the TH everything will be fine.
Re the certificates hanging on walls. With respect, I could go onto the internet and become "Qualified" in all sorts of professions.in 5 minutes
In an age where compensation seems to be the watchword of many it is common sense to want to protect yourself as much as possible.
Nibbler

[Roger]

I have been accused of having an agenda in relation to the Municipal nave.
My only agenda is the same as it was when in 2009 I set up the Help Desk.
It is to help the people of Arboleas, for no financial reward, and to make Arboleas a better and safer place to live.

I organised the 2011 election campaign to ensure that we got a change in the Town Hall to get rid of corruption and to help everyone get a legal and correctly registered home.
Without my efforts this would not have happened..

So when I am accused of publishing incorrect facts my public credibility is on the line, and I have a right to correct some of the statements made.
____________________________________________________________________________

First, it is a fact that the contract which Sophias have with the Town Hall specifically states that there is only permission to run the gym.
Any other activity requires prior approval by the Town Hall.
___________________________________________________________________________

Regarding qualifications, I am sure that many of the people working in Sophias have qualifications. The question is whether they are relevant to the service they are providing and whether they are registered in Spain if required.

The following is from Sophias web site today.
___________________________________________________________________________

Rehabilitation
Most injuries require fast initial intervention to prevent long term medical reliance.
Would you like to get your mobility back?
Have you any of the following problems?
The rehabilitation of joint replacement
Arthritis
Multiple Sclerosis
Fibromyalgia
Rheumatism
M.E. chronic fatigue syndrome
Stroke survivors
Sports rehabilitation
General rehabilitation
Various back problems
Obesity
Diabetes
Hypertension
Tension
Broken Bones
Most injuries require fast initial intervention to prevent long term medical reliance.
HEART ATTACKS AND GENERAL WELL BEING
Cardio machines as well as strength improving and weight bearing equipment are required. Consideration should be given to running machines, steppers, cross trainers and rowing machines, bicycles and vibration plates.
STROKE VICTIMS AND MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS SUFFERERS
Electrical assisted machines are ideal. Sophia Wellness Centre already supply this facility and assist clients of this nature.
MAJOR HIP / KNEE AND JOINT SURGERIES
Stability, mobility and flexibility exercises require very little machinery. Small hand weights, steps, bars, balls and wobble boards would be required, moving onto weight bearing exercises via fixed machinery.
_____________________________________________________________________________

According to the documents supplied to the Town Hall by Sophias the person who works as a "Rehabilitation Specialist" is Michelle Dixon.

According to the documents supplied to the Town Hall by Sophias, there are two qualifications supplied to us for Michelle Dixon as follows:-

STRETCH TECHNIQUES
By Lifeworks Unlimited
A workshop in
STRETCH TECHNIQUES
Dated 8th December 1990
_____________________________

Fitness Professionals
Pro Step Certificate of Attendance
Totally four and a half hours
7th February 1993

Advanced Step Cheography
New bench Stepping Patterns
New Bench Stepping Combinations
Methods of increasing exercise intensity
___________________________________

I am happy to receive other qualifications which have been overlooked,
But this is the evidence on which I am basing my concern.

[mickandjan]

Re Rach's post... :bravo_2: a very sensible response. 

[babs]

Can I just say I very rarely go into this forum let alone post but I was informed of this post so have been reading some of the comments.  I do not know Roger but do know he has done some amazing things for Arboleas but his comments on this forum leaves much to be desired.  To infer that medical treatments have been undertaken by inexperience d practioners is untrue.  At least two of them worked for the NHS in England for many years so how can he say they are inexperienced!  Sophias are a great asset to Arboleas. Bye the way Roger who is the gentleman who would take over?  Seems very suspicious to me. But there you go , another hard working business under threat.

[Rach]

I am an outsider looking in and have no hidden agenda.  I have lived in Arboleas for many years and know a great many people here, both British and Spanish.
It saddens me enormously what I have been reading but I believe that Roger is 100 per cent right in carrying out these important investigations.  I have a few questions of my own:

If the Town Hall agreed to rent the whole nave to Sophia's at just a mere 300 euros a month, why does Paula charge rent to the salon and therapists?  Not only is the Town Hall subsidising her business, they are allowing her to sublet rooms that do not belong to her.  The gymnasium probably doesn't make a huge income for Paula and supposedly taking commissions for therapies and charging rent for the therapy rooms hugely boosts this, but why should Paula be using a community asset for her own gain?  Furthermore her husband operates his locksmith's business from Sophia's too.  Why is the Town Hall allowing all this to happen?  Selling the salon for a large sum also doesn't seem right.  Paula writes about the 'amazing service' they offer to Arboleas, but it's no different to paying other similar local businesses for their services (and these businesses have greater overheads!).  

The main and most important issue Roger has raised is whether the therapies taking place under the nave roof are being carried out by qualified people, in particular the rehab clinic.  I know of a person who paid a substantial amount of money up front for rehabilitation.  I have since learnt that the person who carries out the rehabilitation is a lady who takes the step aerobics classes.  I also believe she is not qualified to carry out such highly skilled work.  In the recent Walk For Life calendar (great calendar by the way, be sure to buy a copy) there is an advertisement by Sophia's which reads: Rehabilitation Centre to aid recovery for stroke survivors, recent hip and knee operations, back problems and mobility issues. Scary if said person isn't qualified!  If Paula is adamant that all qualifications are in place, I would ask her to post copies of them on the open forum to put all our minds at rest.  She does have a duty of care and this is quite an acceptable request. Also public liability insurance covering all activities needs to be in place.  Can we see a copy of this too?

I too had heard that Paula is selling Sophia's and given that her house is on the market, I would imagine that this is the case.  Given that the nave does not belong to her and that there isn't a lease in place, I'm guessing IF she does sell it, it will be sold as a going concern.  I hope any potential buyers are reading this and that they will work with the Town Hall to create a facility that is beneficial to everyone and allow local charities to use the available space too for fundraising events.  I have Spanish friends who would use the gymnasium if it was open later at night and British working friends who would do the same.  Classes held are in the afternoon which doesn't accommodate these people either.  We need a facility that benefits everyone.

I am confused by Paula saying the qualifications will be stamped in Almeria.  I had a friend from South America who is a qualified dentist.  It took him a very long time to get registered to practice here in Spain.  I can't imagine it's just a case of getting qualifications stamped.  I found this on the internet: The validation procedure for academic or professional awards and certificates is complex. Firstly contact your university or college and obtain an outline of your course and along with your certificates have these translated into Spanish by an official interpreter. They will then need to have an official stamp from this interpreter. Then you will need to send all your documents along with the standard application form to the Ministry of Education in Spain. I wonder if some qualifications need to meet Spanish criteria?

I do not understand why Paula is accusing Roger of slander.  It seems to me that these investigations have been going on for some time and going public was Roger's only way of getting something sorted, instead of it being brushed under the carpet like so many things have been in the past.  As for Paula asking "Have any other local businesses been scrutinised? Are we to expect anyone else to be publicly slandered? Or was this just a case of victimisation", this is just ridiculous as other businesses are not operating in premises owned by the Town Hall and are not their responsibility.

In summary, I think Roger deserves thanks for continuing to have the public's best interests at heart.  Paula should also be grateful that he has pointed out the irregularities in her business.  She might not be happy that he's gone public but at the end of the day, he had no choice as all the issues would have continued to be ignored by both the Town Hall and Sophia's.  

I wish all the therapists at Sophia's and the new owner of Loren's Hair Salon the very best and long may they continue to serve the residents of Arboleas and beyond.

[Blurr]

All members of staff at Sophia Wellness centre have their qualification certificates hanging on the walls of Sophias.
It is only recently that they've been told these need to be " stamped" in Almeria.

Can we not all agree that the legalities in Spain change so often it is difficult to know, whether you own a property, a business or a job.

Anyone who has given an opinion on this forum should first go to Sophias and see for themselves.

Thank you

[Roger]

Nothing I have published here I have not discussed with Cristobal over many months.
I have also told him that I cannot avoid going public.

The Council has the legal responsibility to regulate what happens in the town.
We have seen what has happened in the past when local councils have been casual in urban regulations .. we have finished up with illegal houses, missing infrastructure, legal houses with illegal swimming pools.
We are now trying to control whether people put stone cladding on their walls without a licence, but for 5 years have done nothing to regulate what is happening in our municipal building.

Regarding the services supplied by Sophias, there is absolutely no doubt that their contract states that they have permission to operate a gym, and that they must obtain prior permission from the Town Hall for any other activity.
The Town Hall has known the situation and done nothing. That is down to the Town Hall.
The question of what services can be supplied with or without qualifications is complicated.
For example if you are providing acupuncture in a health centre you must have medical supervision. If not in a health centre there is no regulation, which is strange.
However the council has to give permission and can take a view, particularly regarding insurance against personal liability.
None of this is happening.

The situation regarding the lack of a social centre in Arboleas is in my opinion totally unacceptable.
There was a social centre, but it was given to Sophias.
Now there is money in the budget to build a new centre, for 150,000 euros. This has been talked about since 2012.
From the plans it will be a poor replacement for the existing nave, and I doubt if it will be finished this year; it has not been put out to contract yet.
I keep getting promises.
I see no reason why we cannot discuss with Sophias for shared use of the nave. They are willing to discuss it. Why is there a problem for the Town Hall?
And think what we could do with the 150,000 euros we would save, particularly given that to implement Innovation 14 there is a lot of technical work to pay for and a lot of infrastructure to complete, none of which is in the budget.

I hope people can see why I am frustrated.

[phillthepick]

Admin its about time this thread was removed and the issue be resolved in
the town hall.

[Nicbat]

Firstly, I would like to thank Roger for his apology. Finally you have admitted the Director of a company may run it how she sees fit.

As I, and many other see it, there was a large empty Nave sitting on the edge of the village, which was maybe used a few times a year. Sophia's were approached by the Ayuntamiento to turn it into a Gymnasium and Wellness centre. Sophia's agreed and the hard work began. Sophia's relocated in November 2012. Since then the business has grown and is now a hub of the community.

A lot of time and money was spent ensuring the community was served well.

For 5 years the business has worked, for 5 years blood,sweat and tears have been poured into ensuring it thrives. After all, it has to as Sophia's have made a huge financial commitment.

I understand as a council you need to be open and transparent but why on earth did you feel it necessary to publish on a local forum that things are running illegally? This statement is infact untrue, along with many other statements you made. The contract has NEVER stated that Sophia's can only run a gymnasium.

Your statement that none of the workers have appropriate qualifications is in fact completely untrue.

Comments like this should never have been made, especially by some in your position

I hope now this witch hunt is over, and the many months you have spent investigating you now realise have not been a good use of your time.

If an area is so desperately needed for various functions, why have you just transformed the only available space into a gymnastics centre?

It is time to draw a line under this issue.  The statements you made should never have been publicly broadcast with inaccurate accusations.

Have any other local businesses been scrutinised? Are we to expect anyone else to be publicly slandered? Or was this just a case of victimisation

[felipe]

That is my point nibbler. You simply cannot wait until that happens. Which is why Roger is right in dealing with it the way he has.

[stean]

I agree with you nibbler, if you all dont watch out you could loose a great Arboleas asset. ROGER.

[nibbler]

For once you have a councillor trying to be open and honest and yet some think he's got another agenda.
As far as I can see his HIDDEN agenda is to provide your village with a community centre that is available to all at all times.Yet some of you are not happy.
If this Sophia's has nothing to hide then as long as she has the correct paperwork then she has no problem. If she is NOT sub-letting then she has no worries.
IF all those who perform various services are FULLY qualified and insured then they have no problems.
Filipe It's all very well to say wait until someone has cause to complain then do something. By then it will be too late as the TH will be sued.
Stable door horse bolting comes to mind!!
Nibbler.

[Roger]

Some people may believe that these are matters which should remain confidential.
I believe that these are public issues about how the town is run and should be in the public domain.

The issue is not whether Sophias should continue to offer the services to its clients.
It is about whether the Ayuntamiento has the legal obligation to oversee what is happening in a public building.
For 5 years the Ayuntamiento has failed in this duty because it seems that I am the only person who thinks it is important. Maybe this will change now, but I suspect nothing will change in practice.

There is the issue of the public access to the building. This would not interfere with what Sophias is offering because there is ample space and there are times when it is little used.
At the meeting we had Paula agreed. The Mayor did not.

Next door there is a small hall which has been made available for the local children as a gymnastics centre. This was a huge battle to achieve this.
It is packed with equipment, all paid for by public donation.
You would be excused for not realizing how successful an activity this is because there are no photos in the Fiesta booklet; the other councillors take no interest. The children offered to put on a display at the Fiesta, but it was inconvenient.
The children of course need a toilet, so I suggested we open the dividing door to Sophias, which the Council has welded shut, so that they could use the toilet suite in the gym.
Instead unnecessary money was spent on a small toilet block in the already small gymnastics hall. Why?
Four evenings every week the gymnastics hall is overflowing with children from 4 to 9pm, two evenings competing for space with a judo class.
Children have had to be turned away.
At the same time, a metre away through the closed door, there is unused space in the gym.
I have asked for it to be opened. Why not?

I realize that by airing these issues in public, it will make it difficult for me as a member of a team. However in politics you have to make choices.

[Amanda Oakley]

Surely, this whole matter is simple........
Is the business providing a "Community" based service to all ??
Are all of the services offered, working to the correct protocol - ie. registered if necessary, qualified, paying the appropriate taxes and insured etc.

In any event, surely the Town Hall as the "owners", need to respond and confirm what the real situation is ????
If the business that is operating from these premises is compliant with all legal requirements, then they have no need for concern.....
:104:

[felipe]

I would rather the TH act responsibly as they have done and wait until someone has cause to legal action because a treatment went wrong by someone not practicing with proper paperwork. I cannot understand why anyone should think the TH has an alternative objective.

[Dave2]

Yes Seth, you are so right. The building was Designed to Sophias specifications by the Ayuntamiento to incorporate therapy rooms, rehabilitation etc all approved at the time! Obviously they now have something else in mind for the building so try to make out illegal practices are going on, all of which were agreed at the start! All very sad for the local community.

Personally id have thought this was a offical ongoing & confidental  matter between the GYM and the town hall Legal Secatery.

l agree with these comments (sounds like some one in the town hall has a hidden agenda)

[Roger]

The Town Hall is doing a good job at improving the infrastructure.
But there is more to a town than concrete and tarmac.

Last year ACCRA, an Arboleas community group, had to hold their fair in Zurgena because we have no community hall.
FACE have held very successful fairs at the Kubatin, but because it is not in the Town Centre there were very few Spanish present.
Last winter FACE and Arbuli festival was held in a wet tent with no toilets, at great cost to the Town Hall, because we have no community hall.
There is no opportunity to hold community get togethers, uniting the two communities, because there is no council facility.

There was such a facility until it was given to Sophias.
That is my objection, because at weekends we have the Council Nave not in use.
It should be shared use because there is sufficient space, but I have no support.

We have the promise of a community centre, but this has been promised for 18 months, and I am still pushing to get action.
Even if we get it the building will be of a lower spec than the current nave.

We have two separate communities which we should be uniting.

[Roger]

they has the impression that I am conducting a campaign against Sophias.
I understand why she would think that, and I am sorry if that is how it has come over; it is not the reason why I am taking the stand which I am.
they has the obligation to build, protect and maximize the profits of her company. That is correct. That is the duty of the director of any private company. She is doing the correct thing to fulfill that obligation.

The problem is the Ayuntamiento.
As a Councillor I believe that I have the moral and legal duty to protect the public interest.
It is obviously inevitable that there will be a conflict between the public interest and the private interest.
That is life. We each protect our own corner.
they has been more effective in protecting her corner than the Ayuntamiento has been in protecting the public interest. That is not Sophias fault, it is the fault of the Ayuntamiento.

I have been objecting to the inaction of the Ayuntamiento for several years, without the support of any other Councillor.

When we gave Sophias the use of the public nave in 2012/13 the verbal understanding was that the Town Hall would have shared use.
When this did not materialize I objected to the Mayor. He shrugged his shoulders.

The effect is that the Ayuntamiento gave a public building to a private company at a symbolic rent, thus depriving the community of the use of that building.
Of course some members of the community use the building, as clients of Sophias. Sophias are doing a good job of providing services to their clients.
But for non Sophias clients, including almost all the Spanish community, they have been deprived of the only community asset in Arboleas.
This is wrong, but Sophias are not in the wrong. I apologise if that is how it has come over.

Legally the Ayuntamiento is failing in its fiduciary duty. Something my colleagues do not seem to understand.
Obviously if this puts me in a difficult position that is something I will have to consider.