zurgenga 's court case

[Tetley]

Aside from the terrible toll this is taking on those who are caught up in it, if they decide to give up and return to the uk and can afford to buy a place there they will find that they get stung for 2nd property stamp duty.  The British Government profiting from the fact that to them your main residence is where you are registered with a doctor or dentist, where you vote, where your car is taxed and insured, where you pay tax and if applicable where you work or the kids go to school.  You can claim it back if you sell your spanish place within 3 years, not much hope of that when it's not legal.  So you can be stuck with 2 places and have to pay thousands more just to return to the uk.

I would think very very few here will be able to sell an illigal villa and buy a 100k semi up north,the prices are crackers and the uk punters are just keeping banks afloat.

however,people have had years of stress,BUT  the AUAN  law that was passed ie no compo no demo has helped a lot of people,

the Administration law book here,is the thickness of a building block,very few are going to understand it.....including the elected village folk.... or Brits anywere

and as for a basic understanding of plannin, i wonder how many folks manged that one.

urban land
segrigation cert
mains drains
roads
street lamps....................befor a blocks layed
esc for the land
esc for the house
bolletines for mains sercives
permissions  & licencess for all constructions

no money laundering at the notary.



on the posative side although people have been a victime of.........the local system......and all the stress that goes with it,you still manged to leave the UK and live in the sun so fair play to yer,as a kid i worked with Fitters,that would work till there 65TH Birthday then be dead a couple of years later,

i think the Major X UP the Brits are facing wont  be delivered by a local Spanish council it will be delivered by an  ex Empire  ............back at the Motherland !

[tandas]

Aside from the terrible toll this is taking on those who are caught up in it, if they decide to give up and return to the uk and can afford to buy a place there they will find that they get stung for 2nd property stamp duty.  The British Government profiting from the fact that to them your main residence is where you are registered with a doctor or dentist, where you vote, where your car is taxed and insured, where you pay tax and if applicable where you work or the kids go to school.  You can claim it back if you sell your spanish place within 3 years, not much hope of that when it's not legal.  So you can be stuck with 2 places and have to pay thousands more just to return to the uk.

[KJH3]

This thread has wandered away from the original thrust of the comments made by some which suits those that said them. Steer the conversation away and people and they will forget what was said. You know some should read and understand the comments and situations fully before jumping in with their big feet. Lets hope that the results will in some way repay financially those involved. Broken and ruined lives can never be put right.

[mooshca]

Bootneck thank you for your well wishes . All we want is for our properties to be made legal and live a simple life . No more lies from town halls etc.
This problem is wide spread through out Spain and not just us. I don't only blame the town halls for not going through legal procedures I also blame the Jaunta de Almeria . The Jaunta saw NOT a few villas not a hundred but thousands of homes being built on RUSTIC land . Why did the Jaunta wait until they were completed and paid for before doing anything . Other people on here quote what's what in the UK . In the UK the local council and townhall would stop the building before it really commenced . IN Spain it's the townhall what gave the licenses before clearing permission with the Jaunta . Fairness to the Jaunta the law requiring permission to build on Rustic land came about in the early 1900s. The mayors knew if an urbanisation or one  villa then less then 5,000 sq mtr plot ( since been changed to  1 villa on 10,000sq mtrs) would need the Jaunta's permission, which our mayor didn't do . The ex mayor of Zurgena did not do this he relied on administration of silence what back fired on him .
No one  honest foreign buyers knew any of this , we came in droves bought in good faith and lots ended up in court cases . There are some that do not realise there is a court case against their property .
Once again thank you Bootneck for your support

[PhillipJLloyd]

I lived in Cumbria and while I did not want the trappings of living in London, I bought my property in the expectation that the contract I signed was legal and the information within it was factual. Rural living and rural administration does not equate to corruption and dishonesty.

No it doesn't, and its no help, but the corrupt saw an opportunity with everyone wanting to live there, both Brits and Spanish.

[bootneck]

I lived in Cumbria and while I did not want the trappings of living in London, I bought my property in the expectation that the contract I signed was legal and the information within it was factual. Rural living and rural administration does not equate to corruption and dishonesty.

[bootneck]

I completely agree with KJH3. It's beyond me how anyone could sympathise with those involved in the sale of 149 villas that are not legal. The impact these corrupt practices have had on hundreds of people is horrendous. The reality is;in the area we live, many of these people have since died and their homes remain empty and abandoned, families unwilling to throw good money after bad in a bid to fight the legal system.
I have nothing but sympathy for Mooshca and all those others left to take on this fight. I wish them all nothing but good luck and sincerely hope that those responsible are brought to justice and a positive outcome is reached for all the "villa owners" involved.
Having to see the builder who conned us swanning around our village, unconcerned and throwing up new building projects boils my blood. I often feel despondent that I'm the only one who feels this way but clearly I'm not.
Good luck Mooshca.

[PhillipJLloyd]

byrney well said, its a rural Spanish area that most fell in love with when they moved, but now want all "mod cons".
The majority hadn't a clue what living in a rural area is like, whether its in the UK or Spain !

[byrney]

Thought it was quite simple what I was saying - we live in a place akin to West Cumbria and not Central London so things are different.

Some people seem to want to live in a rural community yet still want all the trappings and "conveniences" of City life.

[Tonica]

Byrney what has earshot of bow bells got to do with this topic . You do come out with a load of bull at times

[byrney]

"Are you hoping that the town hall are aquitted ?"

How the can you read what I have said to mean that?  But, actually, yes I do.  Because I believe in local democracy and that planning issues should be apolitical and in the best interests of the local Community.

What I have said is that finally there will be an outcome.

As has been rammed down all our "non-involved" throats ad nauseum, we do not know the full facts or truth.

The Court case will finally conclude matters - or, as has been said, probably not!  But at least, we get a step further.

The problem here is that Spanish politics are so differenet than those that we have been used to in the UK.

People forget that we are in a rural backwater, akin to some remote village in the North West Coast of Cumbria - we do not live within the earshot of the Bow Bells.....sorry to disapppint some of you.

[Tonica]

Byrney I have been reading these posts and your last comment you  await the court case with interest are you hoping that the townhall are  aquitted ? If not what do you actually mean . If the TH is found not guilty these 240 homes have lost their building licenses by a previous court hearing and will not get these back . Where does that leave these people and their property . Have you not thought of this ?

[byrney]

I will say no more Moosh, other than to say you clearly do not understand the "etiquette" of Internet posting.

When you put a word in capital letters you are SHOUTING.

I never SHOUTED at you.

You SHOUTED at me for something I was clearly not responsible, but I was quite happy to simply argue the point.

The outcome of the Court case will be the outcome.  I await with interest. 

[mooshca]

I cannot believe the vitriol in this post towards Jim Simpson.

Jim's Blog informs Zurgena residents of what is happening in the locality.  It is a very useful source of information.

He was merely reporting that the long-awaited Court Case is now upon us.

So, for the sake of clarity - here is Jim's actual Blog comment in it's entirity :-

"Today sees the start of the long awaited trial resulting from Operation Costurero. The original arrests were made in this case 10 years ago. In the UK I think such a passage of time would render the case closed due to the length of time passing. I do not know how some of those involved (in both the cases of the property owners and defendants) have kept sane for such a long period of time. I only hope now that we get a just result".

As far as I can see, his post is supporting neither one side nor the other.

It merely passes comment about the ludicrous amount of time the Case has taken to finally get to Court; what would likely have happened to a similar case in the UK; how he does not know how the people concerned (on BOTH sides of the Case) have kept their sanity; and, hopes that justice will now take place.

I personally think that Mooshca's comment - "PLEASE JIM SIMPSON do not for one moment think the owners of the 140 villas in this court case believes any of your sympathy for the accused . Shame on you for putting it in print" - is well out of order.

As for Fishinthenet's comment - "Could not have said it better - no concern for the homeowners just his mates (he
thinks)" - how Jim's Blog post can possibly be conceived as supporting his friends on the Councill, God only knows.

Byrney  the above was your first comment on my first post . Bearing in mind my post was before JIM SIMPSON amended his Zurgena blog . So yes I was annoyed . You went on further to state he was not taking any sides But his original post did and it was for the ones on Bail for ten years . To me you were so quick to jump in to shout I was out of order and yet YOU never read Jims original blog , when another post declared he changed it ., you said you can only comment on what you read . LIKE WISE What I read was shameful in the fact a person who represents EX pat could leave them out and made aware that he hurriedly changed his blog . If he that sincere like YOU claim he wouldnt have had made the error in the first place .

Byrney you think I was shouting at you . I could say like wise

But, then, there's Politics for you.

Hcjh - here's a link to Jim's Blog -

http://jimszurgena.blogspot.com.es/

[Fishnthenet]

Byrney

I for one do appreciate your heartfelt sympathy and know you have expressed such before; however, I would like to clarify some points on your last comment if I read it correctly. This current court case or its outcome is not the final solution that will allow people to get on with their lives. There is more to follow. The damage has already been done to many, those who have already lost their licence will not just get it back, those that have lost their money & home will see no return. 

The whole planning issue in Zurgena has affected many that have already been mentioned in various posts, but yet to come are those who have not been directly affected and who think they are fully legal because they have been told such or sit on Urban land because their IBI says so. Currently our taxes are paying to defend the TH´s previous actions, whatever the outcome of this case the next payment by homeowners will be to rectify the issues and that will not be cheap. I refrain from explaining that comment because many have not taken an interest previously, but suffice to say Zurgena is no Arboleas who are working to correct the issues from their own income.

[KJH3]

Strikes me there are some getting involved in the rights and wrongs of whats gone off in the last 10 years, when they are not involved and cannot possibly have all the information as to what has and has not gone off. Neither can they have any idea of what people have been through and are still going through, only they can. Likening this to events in other peoples lives is pointless.
The original post on the blog, which i also read, did suggest that loyalties lay in one particular direction. Like i said above, a poor blog not thought through from someone in a position one hopes would know better.

[byrney]

Oi Moosh, don't have a go at ME - and why all the SHOUTING at me?

I was merely suggesting that Jim's Blog, when I read it, was, in my opinion, a quite well-balanced, factual piece of information, and was not cosying up to either Party as was suggested.

So, to your attack on ME.....

"Maybe when you are involved in COURT CASES going on for ten years you may see a different side to things".

You have absolutely no idea what I have or have not been involved in.

"We knew nearly three weeks ago that us and another 139 villa owners were going to court because our solicitor notified us, the TOWNHALL and JIM DIMPSON knew of this . I didn't see Jim Simpson put a post on HIS blog warning others who knew nothing about this (their fault for NOT taking on going interest)".

I never said anything about the Court process as I have not been, nor would I want to be involved.  I was merely commenting upon a post which, in my opinion, was not called for.*

"YOU Say it has taken 10 years to get to this stage"

I have said no such thing.

"Sorry but you like Jim go on about something you are NOT fully aware of".

I have not "gone on" about anything - see * above.

To conclude.  I have on many occasions over the years expressed heartfelt sympathy for those affected by any irregularities (whether fraudulent or not) which have adversely affected their lives.

I am delighted that, finally, there may now be an outcome which will get to the bottom of what went wrong, who was to blame, what lessons can be learnt etc etc etc - and then everyone will be able to get on with their lives.

[Fishnthenet]

You lost me Tets!

However if your reference is that one states what they are told then that does not represent the interests of the voters or those concerned. It does not take a genius to understand the basics of planning law that is in forcé so why would anyone just say what they are told rather than investigate the truth - or best say nothing!

[Tetley]

Fing is....any Brit here involved in the front of house presentation however well intentioned ,will be" guided "  by what they are advised from the back room.

[mooshca]

Fishnet I often ask myself who is paying the ex mayor's legal fees as he is NO longer Mayor . If it is the town hall I ask where do they get the money from . It costs us enough but their fees must be huge

[Fishnthenet]

Byrney

With all due respect, I know when I read the post and why it was changed. I personally don´t think you know what is really going on in the background or why people get angry.

For many years the ex-pats have had false statements as to the issues in Zurgena, people have been told there is no problem and nothing wrong was done, yet many have lost their licence, many others still in the court process, not to mention the hundreds that have lost their homes and millions of euro, their life savings.

You might wish to read the latest court reports (La Voz), if I am correct in parts of the accused crimes they are now not being denied but more passing the blame on to others. So something was wrong! No IS wrong and been covered up for years.

Many of us have spent a great deal of money defending our own homes and in many cases have been sentenced as innocent parties to the crimes but ironically we are also paying to defend those that should not have let this happen.

[mooshca]

Before any one asks LINDA CAINE a friend and neighbour Did  give me permission to copy and paste her email to Jim Simpson . As she said by doing this it will clear up any questions whether the blog was changed or not

[mooshca]

Just to clarify Jim Simpson did change his blog after my email to him , I have copied it and his answer below. BYrney if like you say Jim Dimpson was caring for both parties why did he have to be prompted to change his comments to as you say "both parties"


Point taken and post amended.

Regards Jim
On 21 Mar 2017, at 20:45, Linda Caine <lccaine@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

Hi Jim

I just read someone's blog on the Aroboleas Forum about YOUR comments on your blog regarding the court case started today . I have to agree with this person as we are one of the 140 villa owners who are in court . Luckily for us we have a barrister which has represented us since the first summons in June 2009 in Huercal O'Vera  court . . As the person on the other forum wrote we did loose our licenses in May 2013 and yes the criminal case was delayed until today and yes I do know the reason for that . My disappointment Jim, you state you feel anguish for the accused on bail . I don't hear you saying you feel any for us the 140 villas involved . We have had worry upon worry and LEGAL cost which is not hundreds but thousands out of our pockets to fight this . Plus court runners fees . You seem to forget that when ZURGENGA town hall goes to court on this particular case, some of the villa owners go to . I can tell you now, we know a lot more then you as you are told by the townhall what they want you to know and NOT from first hand . Please don't say this has been 10 years and only got to court now because believe me there have been court hearings before today's date.

Your Remarks on your blog has offended us . You made no remarks for the 140 villa owners who this concerns , and let's face it, out of everyone they are the innocent who bought in faith . Not knowing this was and is really a political thing .

Rant over linda Caine

[PhillipJLloyd]

Of the 140 "illegal" villas, how money have been bought and sold since, and if so, how recent did this happen ??
Add these to all the others in the area and there must be illegal builds for sale now and on agents books ??

[mooshca]

BYRNEY . Maybe when you are involved in COURT CASES going on for ten years you may see a different side to things . We knew nearly three weeks ago that us and another 139 villa owners were going to court because our solicitor notified us , the TOWNHALL and JIM DIMPSON knew of this . I didn't see Jim Simpson put a post on HIS blog warning others who knew nothing about this ( their fault for NOT taking on going interest) . YOU Say it has taken 10 years to get to this stage . The first case was in June 2009 and there have been on going sessions. MAY 2013 the 140 villas lost the building licenses issued by the Zurgena town hall . That was the ADMINISTRATION CASE. Again no notice on J S blog . Before yesterday's commencement of the CRIMINAL hearing which will go on for a couple of months , was postponed in June 2016 why ? Because half of the original files which were taken when the   Townhall raided had suddenly disappeared .
Sorry but you like Jim go on about something you are NOT fully aware of . Jim changed his post when someone else complained to him . When YOU like me have spent TEN YESRS of sleepless nights, a fortune on solicitor fees fighting to keep your villa , not to mention the stress , then only you can say I have a cheek o voice my original comments.

When we bought off plan in 2006 we did have a solicitor who told us everything was 100% legal . What we wasn't told that the townhall hadn't got the Jaunta's permission to build on RUSTIC  LAND hence to the problem and court case . No we wasn't aware of this but bought in GOOD FAITH

[KJH3]

A poor blog not thought through before publication and then a clumsy alteration to completely change the tone of the original. I think you might be in trouble over this with the 140 and the voters

[Lin Caine]

IN answer to ROD . YES us Caines are fully paid up members of the AUAN and proud of it. After getting stung by our first solicitor we got a brilliant one and although have faith in her we joined the AUAN. As the saying goes 'Don't have all your eggs in one basket' . We thank the AUAN for what they have done for EVERY ONE. We also thank god we have the brief we now have

[Lin Caine]

Yes the Blog has changed because I for one sent Jim Simpson an email telling him what I thought of his post . We too are in this court case and thought his remarks were unjustified . He replied HIS WORDS "Point taken and post amended" .
As the original post stated the first court case was in June 2009 and during this time there has been on going court hearings . Jim Simpson's post comes across that ten years have gone bye so why go to court now. Sorry Jim but you do listen to what the Zurgena townhall wants you to believe . You never seem to seek out the ex pats who are involved and are legally represented in these court proceedings . If you did you might see the broader picture .

[byrney]

Jim altered his Blog after your post on 8.35pm last night?

I doubt it, as I read it earlier than that, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt as I can't prve otherwise.

In any event, if he has done so, it surely simply shows that he is sensitive to other people's feelings? 

[Fishnthenet]

THE BLOG HAS BEEN CHANGED!

[Rod]

Out of interest, how may of the 140 owners were members of the AUAN?

[byrney]

I cannot believe the vitriol in this post towards Jim Simpson.

Jim's Blog informs Zurgena residents of what is happening in the locality.  It is a very useful source of information.

He was merely reporting that the long-awaited Court Case is now upon us.

So, for the sake of clarity - here is Jim's actual Blog comment in it's entirity :-

"Today sees the start of the long awaited trial resulting from Operation Costurero. The original arrests were made in this case 10 years ago. In the UK I think such a passage of time would render the case closed due to the length of time passing. I do not know how some of those involved (in both the cases of the property owners and defendants) have kept sane for such a long period of time. I only hope now that we get a just result".

As far as I can see, his post is supporting neither one side nor the other.

It merely passes comment about the ludicrous amount of time the Case has taken to finally get to Court; what would likely have happened to a similar case in the UK; how he does not know how the people concerned (on BOTH sides of the Case) have kept their sanity; and, hopes that justice will now take place.

I personally think that Mooshca's comment - "PLEASE JIM SIMPSON do not for one moment think the owners of the 140 villas in this court case believes any of your sympathy for the accused . Shame on you for putting it in print" - is well out of order.

As for Fishinthenet's comment - "Could not have said it better - no concern for the homeowners just his mates (he thinks)" - how Jim's Blog post can possibly be conceived as supporting his friends on the Councill, God only knows.

But, then, there's Politics for you.

Hcjh - here's a link to Jim's Blog -

http://jimszurgena.blogspot.com.es/

[hartcjhart]

link to the blog ???

[mooshca]

Amanda that's the problem I had . Hope you have better luck then me . He doesn't make it easy for any replies to his blog

[Amanda Oakley]

I have just tried to comment on the "blog" but need to identify a URL or an account of some sort.............. will try later as not sure what to do ???