Where did the Martin McGuinness post go

Started by PhillipJLloyd, March 21, 2017, 07:16:05 AM

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Karen4

Trev you are absolutely entitled to your opinion and I am absolutely entitled to mine. I stand by my view that your statement was stupid and naive, in my opinion, but of course you are welcome to keep posting whatever you want, as are all of us, within reason.
Cl3880


Trev

Quote from: Karen4 on March 22, 2017, 08:53:12 AM
Quote from: Trev on March 22, 2017, 07:46:21 AM
It is very sad (and somewhat strange) that people feel the need to post such vitriol now that he is dead , but not when he was alive?

Were his 'crimes' not the same last week/ last year?


That is about one of the most stupid and naive things I think I have ever read on a forum. I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. There's a very good article in the Daily Mail today by historian Ruth Dudley Edwards which I think you should read Trev. You are free to forgive the monsters of this world, those who infict pain, suffering and distress on others for their own gratification, but until the perpetrators like McGuinness, Adams and the likes of Rolf Harris actually admit they are aware of the devastation they created, and genuinely regret their actions, then there can be no way to forgive and thus move forward.

I don't need to read the article thank you, and you are welcome to your opinion.
It's a shame you felt the need to deride mine.



Tetley

Quote from: zilnor on March 22, 2017, 09:11:05 AM
Karen,  agreed.

Tetley,

I don't need to read Wikepedia on Cromwell's brutal treatment of the Irish people. IMO, what he did there was unforgiveable. But of course , God was on his side ! 

Yes, I have read stuff on the Spanish Civil War. Now off out to walk the dog. Will post more info later.



MMMMM.....
Analogue mechanically  trained 1970,s Fitter  dear living  in a gone digital/tecno mad O Dearie me world......thankfully left behind with it all ,enjoying the bliss of NO phones ,  apps and  shortage of the intellectual, wile still managing to hone underachievement on the day to day in the sun  lol

zilnor

Karen,  agreed.

Tetley,

I don't need to read Wikepedia on Cromwell's brutal treatment of the Irish people. IMO, what he did there was unforgiveable. But of course , God was on his side ! 

Yes, I have read stuff on the Spanish Civil War. Now off out to walk the dog. Will post more info later.



Karen4

Quote from: Trev on March 22, 2017, 07:46:21 AM
It is very sad (and somewhat strange) that people feel the need to post such vitriol now that he is dead , but not when he was alive?

Were his 'crimes' not the same last week/ last year?


That is about one of the most stupid and naive things I think I have ever read on a forum. I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. There's a very good article in the Daily Mail today by historian Ruth Dudley Edwards which I think you should read Trev. You are free to forgive the monsters of this world, those who infict pain, suffering and distress on others for their own gratification, but until the perpetrators like McGuinness, Adams and the likes of Rolf Harris actually admit they are aware of the devastation they created, and genuinely regret their actions, then there can be no way to forgive and thus move forward.
Cl3880


Tetley

Off Topic,but just out of intrest,have any forum members done any research on the Spanish Cival War or read Paul Prestons insight ?
Analogue mechanically  trained 1970,s Fitter  dear living  in a gone digital/tecno mad O Dearie me world......thankfully left behind with it all ,enjoying the bliss of NO phones ,  apps and  shortage of the intellectual, wile still managing to hone underachievement on the day to day in the sun  lol

PhillipJLloyd

Some people think there is some "good" in everyone, the fact is that there are some in this world that are just totally bad.
Wake up to the real world.


Tetley

#53
Quote from: zilnor on March 22, 2017, 07:54:19 AM
Now waiting for Macc to share his knowledge  on the problems in Ireland, because according to him, most of us know nothing !

There yer go Zills here is a starting point just to save Macc a bit of time,intresting read for the intrested,the Scots were all so Forced laboured and consentrated in Camps......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cromwellian_conquest_of_Ireland


Analogue mechanically  trained 1970,s Fitter  dear living  in a gone digital/tecno mad O Dearie me world......thankfully left behind with it all ,enjoying the bliss of NO phones ,  apps and  shortage of the intellectual, wile still managing to hone underachievement on the day to day in the sun  lol


zilnor

Byrney,

" There are some unpleasant people about."

You are right, and McGuinness was one of them.


byrney

You're right Trev.  It reminds me of the time wen Mrs Thatcher passed away. 

Although I have my own personal views about Martin McGuinness, I at least have some respect for those he has left behind.

There are some unpleasant people about.


zilnor

Now waiting for Macc to share his knowledge  on the problems in Ireland, because according to him, most of us know nothing !

Trev

It is very sad (and somewhat strange) that people feel the need to post such vitriol now that he is dead , but not when he was alive?

Were his 'crimes' not the same last week/ last year?

People also state that some are unable to forgive, this simply isn't true.
As human beings we all have the ability to forgive, some simply choose not too, and that is fine, but the only person they need to justify this to is themselves.
Instead they post statements of hatred as if to reinforce (to themselves), or in perhaps to feel as if there is some collective justification for their decisions.

mikespoon

He was a terrorist and a murderer. Why do many people give him credit for his part in the peace process? Peace from what? From the terrorism he and his cowardly mates started and carried on for many years.
Let´s remember and honour those who died as a result of his actions, and let him rot in Hell (if there is an afterlife)

PhillipJLloyd

macc, so because there were or are "problems" in Ireland, do you think this justifies what he did ??

macc

That post just proves my point Zilnor, like most, you know nothing about the problems in Ireland. Ask your sister-in-law to place a post.

zilnor

Macc,
Please inform us where we have been " ignorant to what has occurred in Ireland, north and south " .
Do you know something that we don't ? 

My sister-in-law was born and brought up  in Ireland. She can tell you so much through personal experience about the intolerance and prejudice of both sides of the divide. But  she always said that " McGuiness and Adams  caused more harm and bitterness than almost any other political group" .

McGuinness was a terrorist who hid behind the political process to avoid prosecution for his vicious crimes.

Tebbit has said, quite rightly, there is no forgiveness without admitting and accepting that what you did was wrong.


Karen4

Quote from: Trev on March 21, 2017, 11:05:43 AM
Quote"First and foremost, Martin McGuinness was a much loved husband, father and grandfather. My thoughts and prayers are with his wife and the family circle at this very painful time of grief and loss."

The man was instrumental in the peace process, and will be missed.
This is the only comment I will make on this subject....if "the man" hadn't been instrumental in creating the "war" in the first place, he wouldn't have needed to be "instrumental" in the peace process, because there would have been no need for a "peace process".
Norman Tebbit wasn't far wrong - McGuinness was a coward who knew very well that involving himself in the "peace process" meant he would never have to face up to or accept responsibility for his crimes. He wasn't sorry for what he did, and he did plenty. He was a bit of a magician alright - not only could he make people disappear...Jean McConville, for example, a woman who was taken away by a death squad, in front of her terrified little children, tortured and then killed and dumped in a hidden location, but he managed to get himself into government. One definition of forgiveness is to cancel the debt. Since he never admitted to anything, or apologised for anything, the debt stands.
Cl3880

macc

 Most posters on here are just ignorant to what has occurred in Ireland, north and south, and reading the posts, that is totally understandable.  :67:

sallyb

Don't ever tell me terrorism doesn't pay, another example Yassa Arafat ended up leading a nation and there are many more I can never forgive them.
Phyll

StellaL

Quote from: Trev on March 21, 2017, 11:05:43 AM
Quote"First and foremost, Martin McGuinness was a much loved husband, father and grandfather. My thoughts and prayers are with his wife and the family circle at this very painful time of grief and loss."

The man was instrumental in the peace process, and will be missed.
The man was extremely instrumental In creating a situation which ultimately required a peace process. I doubt he will be missed by a lot of people.
Stella

sparkiemike

Cut to the chase

he was a murdering terrorist bast*ard

good riddens, hope he died in excruciating pain

Mike
Rules are made for the obeyance of fools & the guidance of wise men

hartcjhart

Quote from: nic.spato on March 21, 2017, 11:43:46 AM
Yet another outpouring of bile and hatred from the usual suspects.
I ain't gonna get into a row with anyone, but just remember, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

ah so we have to sit down and shake hands with al qaeeda/daish et al,some chance!  they would have slit our throats first.
He and his ilk were not FREEDOM FIGHTERS they were murdering cowards who killed ordinary men/women and children because they did not have the guts for a REAL war with the Brit army.
the real sadness about his death was that his family were at his bedside before he died,something the thousands of his victims never got the chance

hartcjhart

Quote from: Hogs on March 21, 2017, 10:05:22 AM
OK here we go then,

Martin McGuiness is dead,  the Beeb paints a picture of his later years and best pals with Paisley, known to all in Stormont as the 'Chuckle Brothers' and his skills as a Political Light, etc etc etc  Ahh how lovely that B'Liar's Spin Doctor goes on to praise him for his work as Ulsters PIRA 2IC in the 'Peace Process' !   He and all the other PIRA Terrorists were given a 'Pardon' by B.Liar yet a number of UK Troops and Police Officers got no closure like their opposing 'Terrorist Combatants' !

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/08/british-troops-investigated-killings-troubles-northern-ireland/

Many of the Terrorist 'Soldiers' were and probably are still good chums with that bastion of Politcal Correctness the Right Honourable Jeremy Corbin, You know the one known to his opponents as Jeremy 'Kipper' Corbyn, Two Faced and Spinless,  (along with another stalwart of the Liberal Left Gang, Ken 'The Toady Newt' Livingston) thought the likes of this Terrorist Brotherhood was a good thing and otffered the Fraternal Support !

Again the Beeb offers no real mention of the murderous regime carried out by PIRA in terms of numbers, but did find editorial space to include Bloody Sunday to add weight to their 'What a fine Fellow McGuiness' was !

A friend of mine recently passed away with prostate cancer and he was a proud member of the Royal Regiment of Artillery during his time in the British Army.  Let me tell you a bit about Gunner David Fairweather MC which he earned whilst giving first aid to a wounded Brother, carrying on the engagement with 4-6 PIRA Terrorists despite having been shot 3 times himself by 7.62 rounds.  Only 2 (Him and his Patient) of his 4 man brick survived his point man died in the 1st exchange of the contact and the rear marker managed to get a call out for assistance and casevac before surcombing to his wounds, He received a Mentioned in Dispatches.

Will I give deference to this former PIRA Terrorist ?  Not a Chance but I would add that Gunner David Fairweather got upstairs before McGuiness and I reckon Dave would have done a Recce on the entrance Pearly Gates fixed a 10 digit co-ordinate into a fixed piece of Artillery and blown him straight down the stairs to another place!
:bravo_2: :bravo_2: :bravo_2:

the murdering scumbag should have got the O.B.E years ago(Hogsy will know what I mean)as should his other muredering pal GA

Trev

Quote from: zilnor on March 21, 2017, 15:18:36 PM
Trev,
I admire your forgiving nature towards someone who caused you much suffering but I think you are in the minority.


I hope that I am not , but most direct victims I speak to have similar experiences where they find it is family and friends who cannot move on, or understand how people can forgive.

zilnor

Trev,
I admire your forgiving nature towards someone who caused you much suffering but I think you are in the minority.

zilnor

McGuinness was a cold and calculating man full of hate , who sanctioned extreme violence in the hope of achieving his political aims.
If I had lost loved ones to acts of terrorism committed  by the likes of McGuinness, I could never forgive them. Placing bombs knowing full well that people will be killed or seriously injured, is unforgivable.

I agree with twojaysalmeria's comment :
" The fact that he was never called to account for any of this sickens me " .   :clap:





Trev

Quote from: twojaysalmeria on March 21, 2017, 14:40:21 PM
"I feel that  to say it is virtually impossible  to forgive is simply avoiding the point that it is exactly what should be happening , how would we , as a race, ever move forward in a peaceful manner if people refused to forgive.
Humans have the ability to love an infinite number of people , therefore we have the ability to forgive and also the ability to hate...it is up to us which we choose."

Oh seriously? OK - so this is my last input. Are you REALLY suggesting that we all 'turn the other cheek' at the evil that surrounds us? Does that include Daesh? Child molesters? Rapists? Serial killers?

Society functions because there is a unspoken and tacit agreement that there are acts which are unconscionable, unacceptable, irredeemable. We shun those who behave in such a way as to threaten or damage the smooth functioning of said society. That's why we have courts, gaols and other sanctions. Much as I dislike the present state of Israel, I cannot disagree with their tenet that war crimes conducted many, many decades ago must still be prosecuted. For me, this applies to those who were responsible for the deaths of innocents, of soldiers and police officers, who were murdered for a "cause" which was never never clear in the first place.

I would suggest that anyone who preaches forgiveness, come what may, has never seen body parts strewn across the road, has never missed being killed by the luck of being a few minutes late, has never been alongside those who have suffered trauma and fear to the highest degree due to assailants unknown who attacked from the shadows and were unrecognisable from the general populace. That's PART of my take on this subject, BTW.

Yes, we need to move forward, yes, we need to accept that the past is the past, BUT, if I commit a crime here, in Spain, I would expect to accept the punishment that the law decrees, should I be caught. To overrule that concept but then to demand that soldiers, under extreme duress, should be investigated decades after the events while their opponents are given a carte blanche for their acts of terror, seriously grates.

Finally - I do not give a toss how involved the cad was in the so-called peace process. He was a murderer, protagonist of hatred and divisionist.

The fact he was never called to account for any of this sickens me.

P.S. : total respect to Fidget for her family's contribution and their sacrifices!

Enjoy the upcoming arguments, people

J



Yes seriously without forgiveness there is no moving forward..... I have never suggested turning the other cheek.
your suggestion that those who' preach' forgiveness have no personal experience or involvement is very  naive.

I was abused as a child..and at 57 it is something that I carry with me every day, I have spent a lifetime hating myself, in and out of institutions.
However I refuse to carry any hatred for the perpetrator(what purpose would that serve me?).
However what I have found is that generally it is not the direct victims that harbor hatred, it is those around them who seem unable to deal with these issues.
My abuser has passed away now , and I attended his funeral and wept real tears for him and his family,my reward for this.......members of my family ostracized me for betraying them in this way and have not spoken to me since.

Hate him if you will but he was instrumental in the peace process and to be honest you have to be concerned for future peace without him.

twojaysalmeria

"I feel that  to say it is virtually impossible  to forgive is simply avoiding the point that it is exactly what should be happening , how would we , as a race, ever move forward in a peaceful manner if people refused to forgive.
Humans have the ability to love an infinite number of people , therefore we have the ability to forgive and also the ability to hate...it is up to us which we choose."

Oh seriously? OK - so this is my last input. Are you REALLY suggesting that we all 'turn the other cheek' at the evil that surrounds us? Does that include Daesh? Child molesters? Rapists? Serial killers?

Society functions because there is a unspoken and tacit agreement that there are acts which are unconscionable, unacceptable, irredeemable. We shun those who behave in such a way as to threaten or damage the smooth functioning of said society. That's why we have courts, gaols and other sanctions. Much as I dislike the present state of Israel, I cannot disagree with their tenet that war crimes conducted many, many decades ago must still be prosecuted. For me, this applies to those who were responsible for the deaths of innocents, of soldiers and police officers, who were murdered for a "cause" which was never never clear in the first place.

I would suggest that anyone who preaches forgiveness, come what may, has never seen body parts strewn across the road, has never missed being killed by the luck of being a few minutes late, has never been alongside those who have suffered trauma and fear to the highest degree due to assailants unknown who attacked from the shadows and were unrecognisable from the general populace. That's PART of my take on this subject, BTW.

Yes, we need to move forward, yes, we need to accept that the past is the past, BUT, if I commit a crime here, in Spain, I would expect to accept the punishment that the law decrees, should I be caught. To overrule that concept but then to demand that soldiers, under extreme duress, should be investigated decades after the events while their opponents are given a carte blanche for their acts of terror, seriously grates.

Finally - I do not give a toss how involved the cad was in the so-called peace process. He was a murderer, protagonist of hatred and divisionist.

The fact he was never called to account for any of this sickens me.

P.S. : total respect to Fidget for her family's contribution and their sacrifices!

Enjoy the upcoming arguments, people

J


PhillipJLloyd

Quote from: sleepy john on March 21, 2017, 13:34:13 PM
I always thought Martin McGuiness was a murderer and a terrorist. Now having watched BBC news and listened to Tony Blair's speech, I realise what a wonderful man he was, and how he was always seeking peace. Surely he should get a posthumous medal.


:a102:

bagwash

to all those members quoting forgiveness, i wonder if your attitude would have been the same if you had lost a relative as a result of the IRA bombings.
The man was the leader of a terrorist organisation that unreservedly bombed killed and maimed hundreads and hundreads of INNOCENT people.

sleepy john

I always thought Martin McGuiness was a murderer and a terrorist. Now having watched BBC news and listened to Tony Blair's speech, I realise what a wonderful man he was, and how he was always seeking peace. Surely he should get a posthumous medal.

Trev

Quote from: felipe on March 21, 2017, 13:21:03 PM
I do not often comment on items on the forum but I will here.

It must be also remembered that nearly 1000 soldiers were killed in Northern Ireland. Hundreds of civilians in England and NI. It would be an extremely hard thing for anyone affected by death or injury caused by the promoting of the terrorist activities that McGuinness pushed for in the 1970s to forgive them. I doubt I would be able to. So please have some thought to those that have suffered directly from the Troubles. It can be so easy to say forgive them, but when on the receiving end that is virtually impossible to do.

I worked in London at the time, travelling daily on the Northern Line, everyone was looking to see if a bag had been left unattended. I was working not far from the bombing of the barracks in London when the bomb went off. Working in Belfast and Londonderry in 1973 was one of the most scary experiences I have encountered. And I was only there for 12 weeks. How the people of NI got though it all is incredible.


I feel that  to say it is virtually impossible  to forgive is simply avoiding the point that it is exactly what should be happening , how would we , as a race, ever move forward in a peaceful manner if people refused to forgive.
Humans have the ability to love an infinite number of people , therefore we have the ability to forgive and also the ability to hate...it is up to us which we choose.

felipe

I do not often comment on items on the forum but I will here.

It must be also remembered that nearly 1000 soldiers were killed in Northern Ireland. Hundreds of civilians in England and NI. It would be an extremely hard thing for anyone affected by death or injury caused by the promoting of the terrorist activities that McGuinness pushed for in the 1970s to forgive them. I doubt I would be able to. So please have some thought to those that have suffered directly from the Troubles. It can be so easy to say forgive them, but when on the receiving end that is virtually impossible to do.

I worked in London at the time, travelling daily on the Northern Line, everyone was looking to see if a bag had been left unattended. I was working not far from the bombing of the barracks in London when the bomb went off. Working in Belfast and Londonderry in 1973 was one of the most scary experiences I have encountered. And I was only there for 12 weeks. How the people of NI got though it all is incredible.

adasingleton

Surly there wouldn't of needed to be a piece process of there hadn't been a war in the first place he just did the full circle .

gus-lopez

Quote from: Angleseyite on March 21, 2017, 13:01:29 PM
Quote from: gus-lopez on March 21, 2017, 12:47:30 PM
Quote from: nic.spato on March 21, 2017, 11:43:46 AM
Yet another outpouring of bile and hatred from the usual suspects.
I ain't gonna get into a row with anyone, but just remember, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
He wasn't a "terrorist" or a "freedom fighter" just murdered others & arranged the murder of others.
Quote from: Angleseyite on March 21, 2017, 11:56:09 AM

Unless you want conflict for ever and a day, there comes a point where you have to move forward towards a more peaceful position. This is going to include some hard decisions and compromise, and that is an unfortunate fact of life.  :08:
That's why you should wipe all out from the begining.
...

Its good to have the opinion of a well educated person once in a while :57:

Reverend Gus López. IEng  MIET   @ your service. :great:


If you get a moment check out the Lord Norman Tebbit on ITV

Piers Morgan - Do you think he can be forgiven
Lord Tebbit - No in order to be forgiven you have to confess and seek penance he never did that for all his personal murders and the ones he ordered.
Morgan - But all that's in the past he gave it up
Lord Tebbit - He's a murderer
Morgan - Why do you think he gave up the bullet for the ballot box
Lord Tebbit - He was a coward

Morgan - Err I think we'll leave it there