Innovation 14

[tonychris]

Thank you Roger for clarifying that.

[Roger]

If you are referring to a house in Los Golondrinos,I am aware of the case.
The process was not correct, the Notary should never have issued the documents, the builder should never have signed over the escritura, and the lawyer should have done his job correctly.
If the land registry eventually registered the escritura they should not have done so.

[tonychris]

We have learned today there is a house on Rustic land on Innovation 14 that has obtained its Escritura, Nota Simple etc. How is this possible??????

[PhillipJLloyd]

If you want to stop these people dealing illegally, name them, so everyone knows, not use the title "the builder".
They need to be known !!

[Roger]

There is currently a new house being built in Arboleas, fully legal with a licence from the Town hall.
But the client has no contract with the builder, and does not own the land, the builder does.
He is giving the client permission to build a house on HIS land.
Incredible.
Someone has paid the same builder a deposit for a plot of land to build their house.
They did not check with the TH.
The land is rustic, may be urban with 14, but then has to go through a lot of amendments because the plot is too small to build on.
The same builder has all his land embargoed for unpaid taxes, preventing clients on urban land getting their documents.

There are still a mass of problems to be sorted before we can start on the rustic houses.

On the positive side, we do not have to bother with a political opposition, because there isn't one.
There were 2 PP Councillors.
Number 2 resigned aftera  few weeks and was replaced by number 4.
Number one has left the country, leaving number 4 on his own.
At the last council meeting Cristobal asked him if he had any questions.
No!

[felipe]

Back when I set up the Limaria Forum in 2004/5 a number of people that had already moved here, were posting warnings about Procoal selling illegal builds in Limaria and Los Hig without the correct paperwork. Only for people that had already bought from them to post that all of the properties were fully legal and buyers should not be put off buying from Procoal (now Clover). (I found out later that the ones posting that they were legal were employees of Procoal and also buyers that they used in their advertising campaigns.)

The end result was a visit to my house from the Notary and the owner of Procoal with a document threatening legal action if the posts were not removed from the Limaria forum. This was after the posts had been on the forum for about 9 months. Yet people still purchased from them believing that all the paperwork would be in place by the time the build was finished.

As in the UK building should not be allowed to start without ALL the paperwork in place. 

[PhillipJLloyd]

The problem is, that to some this seems acceptable. Its still going on, and everyone knows it and talks about it, and writes it on here, etc, but some buyers don't listen and illegal houses are still being sold. Any house that is listed anywhere, almost certainly will not have every check done on it, unless the owner is prepared to pay to get it done. In Spain, a house is very rarely 100% legal now and as for the future who knows ? Its always a risk and its up to the buyer, as to how much risk they take. If it goes wrong it is their mistake, no one elses.

[tandas]

Geoffp43  agree 100% we paid upfront the solicitor 's fee and he told us all paperwork was in order and in fact there was no papers at all.  He also said he'd inspected the build for us to confirm we should send payments as per our contract.  As he was in Almeria city we didn't suspect he was involved with our builders when in actual fact he knew all along.  We had purchased several properties in the uk and thought the system here would be honest.  The way we have been lied to and strung along by various people has ruined what should have been our dream retirement home. 

[geoffp34]

Roger's implication is that it was all the clients' fault. I beg to differ. If buyers bought their houses without appointing a lawyer to act for them, they deserve all they got. Unfortunately, buyers who did things right trusted their lawyer to do all the checks on their behalf. If lawyers don't check everything is in order, what are they appointed for? What so many buyers did not know was that many so-called lawyers were as corrupt as the builders, politicians, notaries, you name it. Hence the system fell apart as far as so many buyers were concerned. Certainly some lawyers all over the world are corrupt, but here corruption was, and in many cases, still is commonplace. Hopefully, this dreadful corruption can be all but eradicated, but, I fear, not in our lifetime.
In the meantime, I am sure Roger and the Town Hall team are doing everything in their power to put get things back on track, and we are lucky to have them.

[Tetley]

I wonder what the situation would be if the old regime were still in power and  Cristobel , Roger and the present Town Hall people hadn't taken up the cause.  

Answers on a post card.............to that one.

The current team will get there but there are NO  quick fixes,the Brxit is a far bigger issue as it it all goes tits up for the Brits and visa,s are required is going to be a nightmere,even trying to use a home......


however glass half full,The brits will vote to stay,,the pound will go to 1.40 plus post reffo stay and inno 14 will arrive over the next 2 to 5 years.

:tiphat:

[Crystal2]

I wonder what the situation would be if the old regime were still in power and  Cristobel , Roger and the present Town Hall people hadn't taken up the cause. 

[PhillipJLloyd]

It doesn't matter whether they are trained, qualified or just an ordinary joe blogs, money talks, and they made seriously large sums of money for being crooks. It was very common so hard to police, and some of them turned a blind eye. The money then disappeared and so couldn't be recovered and when "punishished" it was too late. Any crooked builders, lawyers, council workers, etc thought all their birthdays had come at once, and yes the buyers flocked in, and did things they would never have done in the UK. Big deposits on plots, houses with no electric, water, roads, cash in envelopes, etc. You must question why they did this ??

[Tetley]

At the end of the day,the buyers got of the plane and trusted there Abogado and why wouldent they,legal practice standards should be the same the world over,however they arnt,one my my kids lectur,ers has just told the class abought one bloke thats just been done for practasing as a lawyer for 22 years..........with no papers.

the kids now do a 6 year coarse thats been taken down to 4 years because of education cuts,but they have the same coarse work,so in most cases it still goes to 5 or 6 years with the re sits,then they have to do a 2 years masters,then they have to go as an apprentice at a law firm for a couple of years befor they can apply to the royal colloage,and if they want the uk law degree to back up the spanish one they have to do a year at uni in the UK,so its fair to say that even the law workers here are having to adapt to a new system,most kids will be 6 to 7 years work in plus 40 to 50 k invested befor they even see a lawyers office as an apprentice and in there mid 20,s plus.

i would also think the young planners & officals concearnd with ino 14 will have had a similar training so with this in mind they will want every I  dotting and T  crossing,hence the wait .

:tiphat:

PJ
its nothing to do with these people making a mistake,they are victims of sharp practice or no practice,in the UK  folks carry out opperations like this would have had there assetts removed and would be behind a metal door doing a 5.

Roger Done is also a victim,because people filled him full of shxt in 2008 and turned him into" Arboleas,s great white building  legalisation hope",and he isnt,but the same bloke had everybodys intrest at heart and he is a decent bloke and he really is a credit to the Brits especially with his years of political no how,and getting the right Mayor  elected for the job and to compleat the job.

[PhillipJLloyd]

Packard, yes it was you that made the mistake, you signed. Yes you perhaps did all the checks, but it was your mistake. You had the choice to walk away !
Everybody makes mistakes in their lives, some bigger than others. You are very lucky somebody is trying to correct those mistakes for you.
This is life.

[packard]

Where is the criticism or snide comments about current town hall or Roger in this post subject or others on this forum? None that I can see. What we now have are smug remarks about jumping on the band wagon and then blaming others.
Did I make a mistake by ensuring that I bought off the builder with the best reputation in the area, using the most highly recommended local abogado/solicitor,checking and rechecking with the town hall [pre Roger] that plans were in hand and that by the time the property was built everything planning wise would be complete?
I am not blaming anyone and in particular the current regime. It has to be said however is "how often are the goal posts going to be moved" Many like myself have been patient over the last 10years and will continue to do so.

[PhillipJLloyd]

In the end of course its the clients fault, they signed, sometimes you just can't pass the blame, you made a mistake, and a big one. No one forced you.
The problem was every jumped on the band wagon even the buyers, too frightened to miss out on a good deal.
None of them would have signed on the same sort of property in the UK, so why do it in Spain. Yes it was a con, but people get conned every day, be very thankful that all residents of Arboleas are happy with the Town Hall using their money to sort this out, for the people who made a mistake, albeit a very big one. People also never learn, its still happening, buying illegal houses, trusting dodgy estate agents, etc.

[Tetley]

I dont think Rog is blaming the clients,he is just high lighting that the folks in charge..... will be,the bigest mistake any brit getting off the plane here can make is..... relating things to UK Law or there UK Rights ,80 years ago people were been sent to Dachau here just for there Socalist belifs,the job is changing as the country is a young democracy but the wheels turn slowly.
:tiphat:

I think you need to read it again!!!

I have done, its going to be a long haul.

:tiphat:

[guest4538]

I dont think Rog is blaming the clients,he is just high lighting that the folks in charge..... will be,the bigest mistake any brit getting off the plane here can make is..... relating things to UK Law or there UK Rights ,80 years ago people were been sent to Dachau here just for there Socalist belifs,the job is changing as the country is a young democracy but the wheels turn slowly.
:tiphat:

I think you need to read it again!!!

[Tetley]

Roger,

Please don't blame the clients.

These were, and are, sensible people who assumed that they were moving to another, equivalent, well organised European Country. They did not realize that the administration in Spain, particularly in Andalucia, could be so grossly inept and quite unlike the systems, with all the usual safe-guards in place, in the UK. They thought they could trust their lawyers, or at least have recourse to the equivalent of the Law Society. But nothing has been as straightforward for them in Spain as it was for them in the UK! And on top of that, there have been sufficient British rogues taking advantage of the situation to make things even worse for many of them.

I can only praise your magnificent efforts in trying to sort out the mess people have found themselves in, and I can understand your frustration. But please don't forget your roots and how local authorities, planning and consumer rights work in the UK. Such problems folk are faced with here just would not arise in the UK, particularly on this scale!

Spain has some wonderful attractions, but it's not with its administration!

Chisme

I dont think Rog is blaming the clients,he is just high lighting that the folks in charge..... will be,the bigest mistake any brit getting off the plane here can make is..... relating things to UK Law or there UK Rights ,80 years ago people were been sent to Dachau here just for there Socalist belifs,the job is changing as the country is a young democracy but the wheels turn slowly.

:tiphat:

[guest4538]

Roger,

Please don't blame the clients.

These were, and are, sensible people who assumed that they were moving to another, equivalent, well organised European Country. They did not realize that the administration in Spain, particularly in Andalucia, could be so grossly inept and quite unlike the systems, with all the usual safe-guards in place, in the UK. They thought they could trust their lawyers, or at least have recourse to the equivalent of the Law Society. But nothing has been as straightforward for them in Spain as it was for them in the UK! And on top of that, there have been sufficient British rogues taking advantage of the situation to make things even worse for many of them.

I can only praise your magnificent efforts in trying to sort out the mess people have found themselves in, and I can understand your frustration. But please don't forget your roots and how local authorities, planning and consumer rights work in the UK. Such problems folk are faced with here just would not arise in the UK, particularly on this scale!

Spain has some wonderful attractions, but it's not with its administration!

Chisme

[Tetley]

Steve has asked for the simple version of the problem.
Here it is, but some will not like it.

In 2002 the Junta produced an updated urban planning regulation. It is clear and sensible.
They organised seminars for lawyers and architects.
And then everyone carried on regardless and ignored the regulations.
They built houses on urban land without correct documents, they did not segregate the land correctly, and they did not put in the infrastructure. They even put in illegal pozos rather than sewage systems.
This did not just happen in Arboleas and the Almanzora Valley, but all over Andalucia and even other parts of Spain.
So who was to blame?
The lawyers, the architects, the local politicians, the builders.
And yes the clients!
How many people asked to see the architect project, or the building licence before paying for the house, or proof that the builder owned the land they were being sold? Even now there will be many people who think that they have all their documents when many will not have licences for pools and garages, even though these were included in their contracts with the builder. How many people took possession of their house, having paid all their money, without mains water and electric supplies?

I get the impression that some people think it is my fault because we have not sorted out the problem quicker, when we did not create the problem. They should have checked better before they paid their money. Most of it was their responsibility just like buying anything else.

As for the Junta officials.
They have been told that it was not the house owners fault, BUT I am sure that privately they will think "well if they did not know they should have".
Why should we expect the Junta officials to put their job on the line to approve back dated plans without being 100% certain that everything is correct. Environmental protection, housing densities and allowed urban expansion, provision for all infrastructure, protection of heritage, provision of water and electric supplies, provision of space for social housing, and so on.
It is a long and complex process.
As for the Supreme Court ruling. This is very sensible. Local Councils should not be able to arbitrarily decide to expand the town in one direction without giving justification for the option chosen.

On a personal note, I am !!!!off with the suggestion that we are not doing enough quickly enough.
We are spending so much time, money and stress trying to sort out the mess we inherited, and trying to update the infrastructure shortcomings which everyone was happy to ignore for years.
I get e mails demanding why the Council is not removing out of date posters from walls, or have not yet installed sewage pipes in their road or not yet tarmaced their road, when they said nothing to their builder when they moved in.
I am also very annoyed that we are having to find public funds which are in short supply to carry out work which the builders should have done, funds which we should be using to improve public services such as the medical centre, social centre and cultural and recreation services.
And what happened to the money the builders made. My estimate is that they made a profit of 100k per house, but now they are broke and facing the tax man for unpaid tax. Incredible.

That is off my chest. Now I am spending the weekend updating Council files.
All this for 2 euros per hour!!

Thats it in a nutshell Rog,in my veiw,befor my lad went to law school here,i thought all area,s would simply be retrospectivly legalised as it makes economic sence,

however now i dont,

spanish law is very complicated infact probably one of the most complicated in the world,and the lawyers have to check the bollitin board ( when a government is in power ) daily for new rules & regs

the MAIN thing is Arboleas is trying to sort the Job,so there is a chance of ino 14,but it may still be a very very long haul.

:tiphat:

[alansue]

I think Roger has explained in the fullest definition why it has not been signed off yet. It looks like things are going in the right direction. Our Town Hall should be congratulated on what they have achieved to date with the massive problems they inherited from the previous Council. They are having to put up with petty snide remarks from many people who should have done their own homework before purchasing. They are trying their very best to get things right for the good of everybody in Arboleas. We need people like Roger and the team in the Town Hall. Just let them get on with it. They too have to work the speed of the Junta as well. So start supporting them and stop knocking them.

[ladyboyg1]

Steve has asked for the simple version of the problem.
Here it is, but some will not like it.

In 2002 the Junta produced an updated urban planning regulation. It is clear and sensible.
They organised seminars for lawyers and architects.
And then everyone carried on regardless and ignored the regulations.
They built houses on urban land without correct documents, they did not segregate the land correctly, and they did not put in the infrastructure. They even put in illegal pozos rather than sewage systems.
This did not just happen in Arboleas and the Almanzora Valley, but all over Andalucia and even other parts of Spain.
So who was to blame?
The lawyers, the architects, the local politicians, the builders.
And yes the clients!
How many people asked to see the architect project, or the building licence before paying for the house, or proof that the builder owned the land they were being sold? Even now there will be many people who think that they have all their documents when many will not have licences for pools and garages, even though these were included in their contracts with the builder. How many people took possession of their house, having paid all their money, without mains water and electric supplies?

I get the impression that some people think it is my fault because we have not sorted out the problem quicker, when we did not create the problem. They should have checked better before they paid their money. Most of it was their responsibility just like buying anything else.

As for the Junta officials.
They have been told that it was not the house owners fault, BUT I am sure that privately they will think "well if they did not know they should have".
Why should we expect the Junta officials to put their job on the line to approve back dated plans without being 100% certain that everything is correct. Environmental protection, housing densities and allowed urban expansion, provision for all infrastructure, protection of heritage, provision of water and electric supplies, provision of space for social housing, and so on.
It is a long and complex process.
As for the Supreme Court ruling. This is very sensible. Local Councils should not be able to arbitrarily decide to expand the town in one direction without giving justification for the option chosen.

On a personal note, I am !!!!off with the suggestion that we are not doing enough quickly enough.
We are spending so much time, money and stress trying to sort out the mess we inherited, and trying to update the infrastructure shortcomings which everyone was happy to ignore for years.
I get e mails demanding why the Council is not removing out of date posters from walls, or have not yet installed sewage pipes in their road or not yet tarmaced their road, when they said nothing to their builder when they moved in.
I am also very annoyed that we are having to find public funds which are in short supply to carry out work which the builders should have done, funds which we should be using to improve public services such as the medical centre, social centre and cultural and recreation services.
And what happened to the money the builders made. My estimate is that they made a profit of 100k per house, but now they are broke and facing the tax man for unpaid tax. Incredible.

That is off my chest. Now I am spending the weekend updating Council files.
All this for 2 euros per hour!!

:clap:

Sadly it is the way of the world now , People  know deep down that it was their responsibility, but it's far easier to push the blame elsewhere.

[joanie]

 How did we not have all these problems with legalizing properties under innovation 13 ?
Also a point thats been bugging me for sometime. I was under the impression before the last Local election that 14 was about to be signed off by Almeria
but was delayed again because someone refused to sigh something to do with land adjoining the cemetery.
I am still pondering what this had to do with legalizing properties under Innovation 14
Mr Joanie

[Roger]

Steve has asked for the simple version of the problem.
Here it is, but some will not like it.

In 2002 the Junta produced an updated urban planning regulation. It is clear and sensible.
They organised seminars for lawyers and architects.
And then everyone carried on regardless and ignored the regulations.
They built houses on urban land without correct documents, they did not segregate the land correctly, and they did not put in the infrastructure. They even put in illegal pozos rather than sewage systems.
This did not just happen in Arboleas and the Almanzora Valley, but all over Andalucia and even other parts of Spain.
So who was to blame?
The lawyers, the architects, the local politicians, the builders.
And yes the clients!
How many people asked to see the architect project, or the building licence before paying for the house, or proof that the builder owned the land they were being sold? Even now there will be many people who think that they have all their documents when many will not have licences for pools and garages, even though these were included in their contracts with the builder. How many people took possession of their house, having paid all their money, without mains water and electric supplies?

I get the impression that some people think it is my fault because we have not sorted out the problem quicker, when we did not create the problem. They should have checked better before they paid their money. Most of it was their responsibility just like buying anything else.

As for the Junta officials.
They have been told that it was not the house owners fault, BUT I am sure that privately they will think "well if they did not know they should have".
Why should we expect the Junta officials to put their job on the line to approve back dated plans without being 100% certain that everything is correct. Environmental protection, housing densities and allowed urban expansion, provision for all infrastructure, protection of heritage, provision of water and electric supplies, provision of space for social housing, and so on.
It is a long and complex process.
As for the Supreme Court ruling. This is very sensible. Local Councils should not be able to arbitrarily decide to expand the town in one direction without giving justification for the option chosen.

On a personal note, I am !!!!off with the suggestion that we are not doing enough quickly enough.
We are spending so much time, money and stress trying to sort out the mess we inherited, and trying to update the infrastructure shortcomings which everyone was happy to ignore for years.
I get e mails demanding why the Council is not removing out of date posters from walls, or have not yet installed sewage pipes in their road or not yet tarmaced their road, when they said nothing to their builder when they moved in.
I am also very annoyed that we are having to find public funds which are in short supply to carry out work which the builders should have done, funds which we should be using to improve public services such as the medical centre, social centre and cultural and recreation services.
And what happened to the money the builders made. My estimate is that they made a profit of 100k per house, but now they are broke and facing the tax man for unpaid tax. Incredible.

That is off my chest. Now I am spending the weekend updating Council files.
All this for 2 euros per hour!!

[Tetley]

Rog
in simple idiot proof explanation

why have the planners kept thowing it OUT ie

is it

1 ) That they think Arbolease has taken the pxxx by throwing a load of houses up without putting the correct infrastructer in first

  2)Arboleas still  dosent have the infrastructer in place example water supply

3 )there not happy with 1600 poo in pots poluting the water coarse and want the full mains drains system working BEFOR  they pass 14 off

4 ) un built land has been brought IN  to Ino 14 ie a" land bank of Arboleas Brown feild" to be built on at a later stage


also Rog, just out of intrest for any of our spanish fluent folks,are the rejection reports in the public domain and copys avalable to the citizens effected to have a copy of to read.


if yer can Rog try and keep the reply Idot proof and simple because a lot of folks arnt at your level of planning & legal expertize myself included .

TVM   :tiphat:

[Roger]

As always we are starting work on the addendum today.
The only question is how long our planning consultant will take to prepare the document, but he is very thorough and understands the urgency.
As soon as we have the addendum we will call a special council meeting.

[freddie]

So how long will it take for the addendum to be completed and put before the council are we looking after the summer break before it gets presented to the Junta? dont want to be negative but would like to know approximate timescales, are we still looking at next year before Innovation 14 gets passed.

[Roger]

latest update
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